Borden vs St. Jean

[grayman]

Jane doe, there's french in Borden too, I know there has been francaphone courses run there as well.  BMQ is BMQ, the onlt real difference is St Jean has been doing Reg force BMQ's a lot longer than Borden and they have a little better set up and better support, but all BMQ curriculum is the same throughout.

 

[ManWithThePlan]

Borden BMQ is very unorganized.  Our course didn't even get dog tags or permanent ID cards.

Hope to get sent to St. Jean... it might be harder but at least they know what they are doing.

Cheers

 

[grayman]

I will have you know its not that the instructors dont know what we are doing, its the fact that for years it has been strictly Naval Reserve Training Division at the moment it is going through a transitional phase with CFLRS det Borden getting its digs in too, we are going thru some growing pains as any new unit does.  Having said that there are still some dinosaurs that are having difficulty giving up the way it was for the way in needs to and should become.

 

[FNG]

St. jean and Borden will both seem like a joke walk once you start sq in Meaford.  :threat:

 

[grayman]

Alright my turn....In regards to one place being better than an other, lets see....All material taught in Borden and St Jean same thing regulated by a Standards cell.
Recruits in the H club in Borden is strictly VERBOTEN as well as bleachers, O club only.
As for recruits strolling around base and not marching if and when given time off they cant be kept an eye on 24 hours a day, and lets be honest when you went through any little way to "stick it to the staff" so to speak you did as well.  Now just an opinon but I believe troops get away without marching in Borden more than ST Jean could have something to do with the sheer size and volume of recruits in St Jean, also being the Primary recruit school in Canada might have something to do with it, there is definatly more staff in St Jean.  Borden is also spread out all over hells half acre and it is hard to see all troops at once.
As for Staff and instruction it is all dependent on the Staff themselves, some are "HARDER" than others, probably something to do with trade, its been my conclusion the combat arms have a different style of instruction than lets say an Airforce Tech trade, not neccassarily better or worse just different.

As an instructor here in Borden I can tell you that my section got away with nothing, and I had incredibly high standards  I expected of them and though some thought thet were getting C**K, in the long run it paid off for them, and will continue to pay off in the future, If you dont believe me just ask them !

 

[Jinpa]

Grayman is right...

Borden is merely having some growing pains, but when I was in Borden sitting in good' ol PRETC I saw some Borden BMQ grads...
and ... well... Uhh... I don't know what to say.  In Borden, BMQ recruits are put 4 to a room, as opposed to St. Jean, where you're all
stuffed in one giant figure 8, with 30 recruits per loop, etc etc... this makes teamwork much easier.  For instance, when course senior says "were not wearing webbing today" he can just yell it at the top of his lungs and it's done, now imagine 4 per room, trying to the same message across, believe me it's nowhere near as easy.

To further the argument, St Jean holds your weekends for ransom, "if you disappoint me, you'll lose your weekend" the Sgt will say.  Whereas alot of Borden recruits get weekends off as early as the 2nd week.  In St Jean if you fall out of a run, you go to the MIR, no questions, if you go to the MIR, you miss class, if you miss too many classes, you get re-coursed.  Borden as far as I know right now, has no such policy.  I met a female recruit (i'll withold names) that was 250 lbs and never finished one run, NOT ONE RUN....didn't finish her BFT, couldn't shine her own boots, failed her first two attempts at first aid, but by some miracle was given a 2nd re-test and passed.  She even gloated that if she had done BMQ in St Jean she wouldn't have made it to week 2....  this made me glad I did mine in St Jean

These are the things you won't find in St Jean.  I may be wrong and please don't tread all over my opinion.... Borden seems much more interested in a nice FAT course pass ratio.  Again I may be wrong, but what from i've seen and heard from many a Borden recruit, I don't believe i'm too far off.  I'm sure Borden has gotten better as most of the tales i've been told were told to me from the pilot course that was run in the fall of 2005.

Basically, if you just wanna pass BMQ go to Borden... if you want it done right, go to St Jean.  Now go nuts picking my post apart.

Cheers
Jinpa

 

[NavComm]

To further the argument, St Jean holds your weekends for ransom, "if you disappoint me, you'll lose your weekend" the Sgt will say.  Whereas alot of Borden recruits get weekends off as early as the 2nd week.  In St Jean if you fall out of a run, you go to the MIR, no questions, if you go to the MIR, you miss class, if you miss too many classes, you get re-coursed.  Borden as far as I know right now, has no such policy. 

The CF policies are the same in Borden and St. Jean. Our course didn't get unearned weekends off although we had a few MIR commandos, I'm sure they exist in St. Jean also. IMO it's the application and interpretation of standards that you are really talking about.

I may be wrong and please don't tread all over my opinion....  Now go nuts picking my post apart.

Cheers
Jinpa

It's tempting, but I really don't think you're too far off the mark. IMO it's not the difference between Borden and St. Jean so much as it is the recruits themselves that dictates what the instructors focus on.

I have the advantage (or some might say disadvantage) of being re-coursed. I had the pleasure of doing 6 weeks of the summer (reserve) 8 week course and then the 11 week winter course (mostly RegForce). Both were in Borden. The differences were night and day. The 11 week course, taught by RegForce instructors, was totally different even though it was the exact same course for the most part. The differences had more to do with the focus of the staff, what they were trying to accomplish, and who they had to work with.

The summer staff was completely competent and professional but they were training mostly teenage reservists. They spent more time instructing them on how to act like adults (do up your button, don't spit, wake up, stop doing handstands on the chief's grass, stop crying) than they did on teaching them how to be soldiers, sailors and airmen.

The winter course was full of mostly adult (a very few teenagers) who were going reg force infantry and combat arms. A whole different mindset, both in the students and in the instructors.

So I'm guessing you were talking to mostly reservists who had gone through Borden thinking it was a breeze and reg force people who had gone through St. Jean being prepared for fulltime life in the military.

Just my .02

edited to add "unearned" to weekends off, didn't mean to say we never got weekends off in either course...both were always earned...some had to be earned by the platoon, others depended on the individual.

 

[Bo]

St.Jean is near Montreal  ;D

 

[steve29]

I am teaching SQ now. What the general consensus is around my office is, the troops coming out of St Jean are a lot more professional and hardworking. Their weapons drills are way better then that of Borden ( I think the weapons cadre in St Jean is all infantry)which could explain the better drills. I just finished a course that came from St Jean and had no problems. The course I am on now we are on week 4 and there are 12 soldiers from Borden in my section. They have 17 Initial and final warnings 15 red chits, 3 charges, and 1 rtu, out of the 12 of them.

This is just my 2 cents.

 

[735_winnipeg]

just curious but does borden have an internet cafe or something?  the reason i'm asking is that i pay my bills online and its a hassle if i miss a payment.  i leave for borden on 18 aug to wait for a space to open in kingston, what does PAT platoon do anyways? 

 

[George Wallace]

As has been recommended to so many before you:

Go to your Banking Institution or the company to which you owe "Bills" and arrange for "Pre-Authorized Payments".

 

[exgunnertdo]

The Base library here in Borden has free internet, but only a couple of computers.  Open till 8 pm Tues to Friday, Saturday, noon till 4.  Not sure about internet cafes.  But, it would be easier to do as been recommended, set up pre-authorized payments whenever possible.

Can't comment on what your life will be like as a PAT here, however.

 

[canadianblue]

The computers at JR's cafe are usually broken down, of the five computers they had there on average I think only one or two would be working. If you want to use a computer go into Angus and use the public library.

i leave for borden on 18 aug to wait for a space to open in kingston, what does PAT platoon do anyways? 

Nothing, I was on PRETC for about two and a half months and that was the most unproductive time of my life. Really all that happens if you get marched over to T-83, sit around, go for lunch at 11:00, go back to T-83 at around 1:30, gaggle around, then go back to the shacks at around 3:30. Sometimes you can go workout, and they might have the odd activity that you can do, but none of it will get you any qualifications. PRETC is apparently overflowing right now, so the situation has probably gotten worse. We also did a field ex in PRETC, it was just a joke, its basically the field version of PRETC.

 

[steve29]

I am teaching SQ now. What the general consensus is around my office is, the troops coming out of St Jean are a lot more professional and hardworking. Their weapons drills are way better then that of Borden ( I think the weapons cadre in St Jean is all infantry)which could explain the better drills. I just finished a course that came from St Jean and had no problems. The course I am on now we are on week 4 and there are 12 soldiers from Borden in my section. They have 17 Initial and final warnings 15 red chits, 3 charges, and 1 rtu, out of the 12 of them.

This is just my 2 cents.

 

[steve29]

Doesn't matter where your BMQ - everything that you learn there is merely to prepare you for future courses.  Very little of what you learn there will have any bearing on your MOC courses.  If you're going combat arms, expect that once you reach wherever you'll be doing your SQ that your instructors will say something along these lines - " Take everything you learned at that St. Jean place and throw it away. (etc etc).  "

As for the caliber of instructors, well again that's an individual thing.  Course content is managed by Standards, so you'll see little difference in the content in either of the places.

As for bragging that you went through BMQ at once place as opposed to another, that's plain out ridiculous.  No one will care in your unit.  If you go infantry for instance, even your Battle School is looked as a joke in unit to those who've been around awhile.  It's what you do when you get to your unit that counts, don't let anyone fool you otherwise.

I'll have you know battleschhol is no joke. Unless it has turned a complete 180 in the last 10 years. As a section commander in 2RCR I do care about my troops that have passed battleschool and how well they have done. With the kind of tempo we keep, I make sure I read this persons files and background because I may not get a chance to work with them for months at a time. And this will help me deciding what taskings to put them on, courses etc. EG if person shows up just around course loading time, depending what is written about him is what course I will slate him for.


oh yeah back on topic Borden St Jean

 

[canadianblue]

I am teaching SQ now. What the general consensus is around my office is, the troops coming out of St Jean are a lot more professional and hardworking. Their weapons drills are way better then that of Borden ( I think the weapons cadre in St Jean is all infantry)which could explain the better drills. I just finished a course that came from St Jean and had no problems. The course I am on now we are on week 4 and there are 12 soldiers from Borden in my section. They have 17 Initial and final warnings 15 red chits, 3 charges, and 1 rtu, out of the 12 of them.

This is just my 2 cents.

When I went through St Jean it was mostly combat arms with few Sig Ops and a Boatswain. One thing I've noticed is that quite a few of the recruits that attended Borden have said they never really felt pride by being able to complete that course, for me that tells me something is wrong. I know that in my course the vast majority of recruits were full of pride for being able to complete it, and being able to wear the uniform.

 

[NavComm]

Well I guess you're all correct then. Borden sucks. Maybe I should file a grievance stating that I didn't get the best training available? Any mistakes I make in the future will undoubtedly be the fault of my poor training at Borden. I'll request to be put through the St. Jean course so that I can be as good at basic recruit skills as those lucky bastards that got to go to St. Jean. I've been robbed!

 

[HiredGoon10]

My BMQ at Borden starts September 4th and I'm really looking forward to it. I could care less whether St. Jean is more strict than Borden, or vice versa. From what I gather the course elements are the same, what may differ is the way they are taught. Basically what I'm trying to get at is you get out what you put into it. If some recruits are going to walk around with their head up their rectum and basically refuse to learn than that's their decision. Personally I'm going to get as much out of it as I can and hopefully those that think I got short-changed on my training will recognize that.

 

[steve29]

Well I guess you're all correct then. Borden sucks. Maybe I should file a grievance stating that I didn't get the best training available? Any mistakes I make in the future will undoubtedly be the fault of my poor training at Borden. I'll request to be put through the St. Jean course so that I can be as good at basic recruit skills as those lucky bastards that got to go to St. Jean. I've been robbed!

Guess you didn't like me being honest. I know I'm new on this board. But buddy wanted to know if there was a difference. So I pointed it out what noticible differences I have personally seen. Now myself instead of acting like a 2 year old, would concentrate on making myself the best soldier I could be. But that is just me, you can blame the whole world if you want to.

 

[steve29]

My BMQ at Borden starts September 4th and I'm really looking forward to it. I could care less whether St. Jean is more strict than Borden, or vice versa. From what I gather the course elements are the same, what may differ is the way they are taught. Basically what I'm trying to get at is you get out what you put into it. If some recruits are going to walk around with their head up their rectum and basically refuse to learn than that's their decision. Personally I'm going to get as much out of it as I can and hopefully those that think I got short-changed on my training will recognize that.

This is a good attitude to have. Good luck with your training. I'll see you in Gagetown if you come here for your SQ