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Bombardier Dash-8 Q400 CRASHES IN BUFFALO, NY. NO SURVIVORS

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Buffalo crash witnesses describe massive blast, intense flames
Last Updated: Friday, February 13, 2009 | 10:07 AM ET CBC News



buff-crash-cp-6244444.jpg

Firefighters look over the wreckage of Continental Airlines Flight 3407, which lies amid smoke at the scene after crashing into a suburban Buffalo home late Thursday. (Dave Sherman/Associated Press)

Witnesses to the Buffalo-area commuter plane crash said a massive boom sent pyjama-clad neighbours into the streets Thursday night as three-storey high flames and acrid smoke filled the air.

Ryan Zang, who lives six houses down from the crash site in Clarence Center, said he was relaxing at home when he heard and felt an intense blast.

"We’re used to planes flying over our house all the time, but this one sounded extremely low. Our whole house shook and there was some type of an explosion."

Zang said he ran out onto the street with his neighbours when he heard the crash, which killed at least 48 people on board and a man on the ground. Some reports say there were 49 people on board, but that has not been confirmed.

"Pretty much every one of my neighbours was out there looking on and, you know it was 10 o'clock at night so … people were in their pyjamas."

Zang said he couldn't see any remains of the 74-seat Dash-8 Q400 among the flames.

"The explosion was so intense and the fire was so large that there really was no evidence of a plane there at all. And the house that was there was completely gone."

He said the incoming plane sounded unusual.

"It just sounded mechanically like there was something not right about the sound or the pitch of the plane flying over the house."

Jean Van Kuren, who owns a daycare in Clarence Center, said the town's fire station is across the street from the crash site and a truck was on the scene within minutes.

She said the wife and daughter of a man who was killed inside the house struck by the plane came running to the scene. It appeared they hadn't been in the house when the plane hit, said Van Kuren.

"They were coming from somebody else's house, and came up and the daughter started to scream and cry that it was her house," she said.

'The house … was an inferno'

Area resident Andrea Herberger said her son, a volunteer firefighter, ran out of their house as soon as the crash happened and has been at the scene ever since.

She said the heat and smell of the fire was too much to take.

"Flames were shooting three storeys up into the air and you couldn’t see anything and we were there about 20 minutes and … the smell was so overwhelming … we couldn’t take it anymore," she said.

"We had to come home and watched out the window for the rest of the evening."

Another neighbour, Barbara Lewis, said she thought it was a gas explosion.

"When we got down there, it was probably about 12 minutes after the plane crashed. The house … was an inferno, and a big pile of rubble ,and from our angle you couldn’t see anything of any sort of plane," she said.

Lewis said the two homes on either side of the house where the plane hit are still standing.

"The power lines in front of the house weren't even affected. Our electricity didn't even go out. The tree that was directly next to the house, it was still standing [but] completely engulfed in flame," he said.

"You know, you imagine more of a long path of devastation of a plane [that] comes down."

Brendan Biddlecom said neighbours in the tight-knit community have banded together to offer each other comfort and support.

"Everybody's on the phone, everybody's calling each other," he said.

"Things like this just put things in perspective for everybody. You realize it's things like friends and family that really matter. Everything else is really just busy work."

Biddlecom, a father of two, said the crash will have ripple effects throughout the community, adding one of the crash victims is believed to be the aunt of his son's classmate who was on her way to Clarence Centre for a Valentine's Day party.

The flight, Continental Airlines Flight 3407, was operated by regional carrier Colgan Air Inc. and was headed for Buffalo Niagara International Airport from the Newark, N.J., airport near New York City.
 
National Newswatch has an item up now mentioning that the Q400 "Has History of Landing-Gear Problems".  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that even a perfect landing gear will not work properly if the plane lands on a house.

Bombardier develops these aircraft at Downsview, right next door to DRDC Toronto and LFCA/JTFC HQ.  I live at York University and the things buzz overhead all the time.
 
As of the time I checked it, CNN hardly mentioned it was a Canadian plane, but the Fox news website really locked its jaw into the Canadian connection. Meanwhile, on CBC television they are gonna play up the speculation spin cycle until either their voices are hoarse or something else crashes/blows up.  I often wonder if anyone in the news room sells short on aviation stocks when they get news like this...they you say Bombardier over and over again until you've made a profit.
 
Apparently, the pilot had not been trained in certain aircraft features, only had 109 hours on they aircraft type (all in the prior two months) and had a history of failing check procedures:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124200193256505099.html

In a related vein, the parent airline is now considering conducting random samplng of cockpit voice recorders "as a means of enhancing safety and enforcing cockpit discipline".  The pilots' union opposes sch action.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124201244946205809.html
 
I just read the black box results, and I feel whoever trained, tested and passed the pilots should hang their heads in shame, along with whoever put someone with only 100 hours on as Captain with a clearly inexperainced co pilot.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2009/05/12/9432111-ap.html

I haven't completed my private licence- I've only got 26 hours in a single engine, but I was yelling "WHAT?!?!" at my computer screen several times reading that.

-Not knowing that ice on the wings is a frigging serious problem, and bragging about it to sound cool to his companion... frigggg

-putting the flaps back up when the stall warning came on - the only thing I can think of is they figured the ice on the wings changed the airflow so much that the flaps made things worse, but I can't imagine that much ice allowing the plane to stay in the air. Maybe they were just paniced and just reversed the last thing they did when the stall warning came on hoping to make it go away.

-pulling back on the stick when the stall warning came on when pretty much the first thing you are taught and repeatedly drilled on when learning to fly is nose down to gain airspeed and then level out of a stall, and when nearing a stall NEVER pull up.

I'm sure a real pilot can shed some more light on this and maybe correct me, but from what I understand these are just the basics and it astounds me that this could happen.
 
c_canuk said:
-pulling back on the stick when the stall warning came on when pretty much the first thing you are taught and repeatedly drilled on when learning to fly is nose down to gain airspeed and then level out of a stall, and when nearing a stall NEVER pull up.

Certain sources (don't have 'em handy, I apologize) are suggesting that the pilot had significant experience on a SAAB aircraft where that would ahve been an appropriate response; if that is the case, it speaks to a possible problem of insufficient hours with the aircraft type.
 
c_canuk said:
I just read the black box results, and I feel whoever trained, tested and passed the pilots should hang their heads in shame, along with whoever put someone with only 100 hours on as Captain with a clearly inexperainced co pilot.

While I agree that the training was deficient, he had more than 100 hours as a Captain.  While he had 110 hours as a Dash-8 pilot, he had a total of over 3300 hours, lots of which, I'm sure, were as Captain.  He had, IMHO, more than sufficient experience to act as an Aircraft Captain. 

c_canuk said:
I haven't completed my private licence- I've only got 26 hours in a single engine, but I was yelling "WHAT?!?!" at my computer screen several times reading that.

While the basics are the same, flying a big plane like that has some intricacies.  It isn't rocket science but it is definately different than flying a Cessna. 

c_canuk said:
-Not knowing that ice on the wings is a frigging serious problem, and bragging about it to sound cool to his companion... frigggg

Ice is an issue, however all airliners are equipped to deal with it (anti-icing and de-icing systems).  It's fairly frequent to fly into icing conditions, especially on approach, in the soup.  It happens every day and airplanes generaly don't crash because of icing.

c_canuk said:
-putting the flaps back up when the stall warning came on - the only thing I can think of is they figured the ice on the wings changed the airflow so much that the flaps made things worse, but I can't imagine that much ice allowing the plane to stay in the air. Maybe they were just paniced and just reversed the last thing they did when the stall warning came on hoping to make it go away.

Back to training.  He wasn't trained with the Stick Shaker on the Dash-8.  The Dash-8 is a T-Tail design, which is suceptible to Tail Plane icing.  When he put the flaps down, and got the stick shaker, maybe he tought the tailplane stalled (because of the sudden increase of AOA on the tail planed due to the pitch down motion coming with the flaps going down).  In that case, raising the flaps and pulling on the sticks are the correct actions (for tail plane stall).  I think it comes back to training (in the Dash 8, the stick shaker isn't activated for tailplane stalls, rather, it's a direct function of IAS and Gs, which is linked to the "normal" stall)

c_canuk said:
-pulling back on the stick when the stall warning came on when pretty much the first thing you are taught and repeatedly drilled on when learning to fly is nose down to gain airspeed and then level out of a stall, and when nearing a stall NEVER pull up.

See above

c_canuk said:
I'm sure a real pilot can shed some more light on this and maybe correct me, but from what I understand these are just the basics and it astounds me that this could happen.

What you learn on you PPL isn't always correct when it comes to more advanced flying. 

Before judging, I would consider that humans are prone to take really stupid decision when put under pressure.  It doesn't excuse making deadly mistakes, but human factors are responsible for 82% of aviation accidents after all...
 
PMedMoe said:
Also, having a co-pilot so underpaid that she had to live with her parents in Seattle and commute across the countryto work, may have been a factor.  ::)

Pilots in Buffalo crash may have been fatigued

This is, unfortunately, not uncommon, even in Canada.  That's how companies manage to sell you a 99$ ticket from Edmonton to Montreal.  It gets a little better with the Major airlines,  however at the "small" companies level (for example, Central Mountain Air, and the such), a first officer can be paid less than 20K a year, and a Capt can be paid 50K a year, which is absolutely ridiculous.
 
SupersonicMax

thanks for the insight, that makes their actions a little less astounding and a lot more understandable, in your opinion do you think it was purely a training failure, or should he have had more hours as co pilot in a Dash-8 before taking charge with an inexperianced co pilot? Should 100+ hours been enough?

Having never Soloed and only taken off and landed in small advanced ultralights, (15 years ago... Avid Flyer at Chatham and a Zenier Zodiac at Moncton, plus several Cessenas that my father owned) I've never been behind the stick/yoke of an AC that would require the actions you described, could you perhaps direct me to some literature on the matter. I'm not doubting you its that you've piqued my interest.

I got the hours I did because my father needed to keep me busy while he was getting trained in the Pitts Special, once he masterd that and moved onto another hobby (building a sky bolt) I had no resources to continue, and with college, tours overseas, and now the wife and lately little one on the way I keep pushing completion into the future... someday I'll have the time and money :)

edit spelling
 
Yeah, SupersonicMax, I read that in the article, that's not good.  Now I know why I don't fly the cheap airlines.  But commuting to NY from Seattle?  Wow, makes my drive to Kingston on weekends pretty lame in comparison.  :eek:
 
c_canuk said:
could you perhaps direct me to some literature on the matter. I'm not doubting you its that you've piqued my interest.

From the FAA website

Application of flaps can aggravate or initiate the stall. The pilot should use caution when applying flaps during an approach if there is the possibility of icing on the tailplane.

Recovery from Tail Stall

To recover from a tail stall, you must take actions that are almost completely opposite from those required to recover from a wing stall.  If flaps are extended and you experience lightening of the controls, difficulty trimming, or buffet in the control column, immediately retract the flaps and maintain or reduce thrust -- in other words, undo what you just did.

-Pull yoke back (opposite to action for a wing stall recovery). This reduces angle of attack of the tailplane and moves it away from the critical angle.
-Retract flaps.
-Maintain or reduce thrust.

https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=33&sID=160&searchresults=true&preview=true
 
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