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BFT+Air Force deployment policy...I don't get it !!!!

airforcemissingthearmy said:
YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.


ex-army Zoomie


Not a chance my friend!!!!! There is things happening on an Air Force bases that would be qualified as a disgrace on Army bases :salute:,and to put me in a better mood, I was just told that the deployment physical requirement for the Air Force is now the BFT. I don't have the reference yet, but as soon as I do I'll post it. Just to prove an other fact of life, even if your Air Force, the minimum standard always come back to the Army one...or should we call it the CF one...we all wear the same uniform don't we?

There are things happenning on an Army Base that would be qualified as a disgrace on an Air Force base.  What's the point?  2 different cultures, 2 different type of mission (with a common goal), I don't see what's wrong. 

Max
 
Can you list some of them?  I agree with the 2 different cultures, hands down.  I'd never seen things that involve the 3Ds on an army base go unnoticed or uncorrected that don't even phase people where I've been the last 1+ years.  Snr NCOs with big loopy laces hanging out of their non-bloused LWCC pants and boots that hadn't seen polish since their last quarterly PDR review, in serious need of a haircut and an even decent attempt at shaving prior to RFD are the top of my list of 'things that make me go hmmmmmmmmmm"...

In the army (or atleast the places I was), being properly turned-out on a daily basis was not something that received any special notice, as it was the standard.  I am at a loss for words as to some of what I see, in the Jnr NCO/Snr NCO and higher ranks somedays.  As I sat in the waiting room of the CDU this morning past, a Lt Col walked by a Cpl, who said "hey how's it going?" to this Snr Officer.  ::) 

Speaking for myself, I used to take pride in the deportment that was normal in my old units when I was 'green'.  When I report to my Dept Chief now and 'come to the chow' smartly, I get scowls.  Before, I didn't get a pat on the back for being 'keen'; it was the standard.  We took pride in that standard.  Earlier in my career, when I was a Tp WO, I would report to the SSMs office, come to attention, and wait to hear "enter" or words to that effect.  Those of us who grew up that way are sometimes at a loss to understand why that is laughed at.  We grew up as NCOs learning things like the '3-Ms'.  The Mission, The Men, Then Myself.  I recently did something that was Mission focused, and find myself explaining why I put that ahead of something that was only applicable to myself.  My only explaination was 'the 3-Ms' to which I heard "thats not good enough".  I have no other way to explain it;  its like asking me why I breathe in, then out.  Its natural. 



 
Some of those natural-ingrained actions will never leave you.  Still, to this day,  I come to attention at the door way of my superiors office.  I get the scowls, smirks, etc.  I deal with it.  I constantly get teased or whatever you want to call it for being "too army".  Yet I know that if I were still in a green environment, I would be "too slack".  So where am I?  I'm stuck in the middle, trying to conform to my workplace, yet still holding on to my view of the military.

A year ago I came across a situation where an NCM failed to salute - his hands were in his raincoat, his head turned against the driving rain.  My initial reaction to jack this airmen up was squashed with an uncertainty of whether that would be considered "over the top".  I instead did the air force thing - I wrote an email to the respective Chiefs involved.  Two days later I was in the Chief's office being jacked for not jacking up the Corporal.  So lesson learned there - go with your initial reaction.

I find that our Squadron Chiefs (CWO's) are trying their hardest to run a tight ship.  The last couple of Wing Chiefs and Squadron Chiefs have been notorious ball breakers.  They come aboard anyone with sloppy deportment, tell Captains to get their hair cut.  Our Chief's latest battle has been side-burns and enforcing their length.

I find most NCMs still address me as "Sir".  The FE's usually don't - they are a crusty bunch.  As Euro-Wing can attest, there is still a military decorum between the maintainers and the aircrew - it may be relax compared to the Army, but it still exists.
 
Crusty... why I otta... I think the plane is broke no fly today  ;)
 
It is nice to see that others see and loath what I see!(Dress and Deoportment) We are suppose to be one Force (CF) and should have the same standards....but we do not! Now the Air Force wants to develop its own fitness standards! If we are all working to a common goal, why all the little kingdoms and different standards? Here is the article from the Maple Leaf...........

Project SOAR to develop new Air Force fitness standards
by Holly Bridges

Soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen – all are different, yet all are the same in their capacity as serving members of the CF. For years, the CF EXPRES Test has measured the fitness levels of all CF personnel, regardless of their military occupation.

Given the level of specialization of occupations within the CF, senior leadership has suggested that environmentspecific fitness standards would likely be more reflective of the demands placed on CF men and women.

Now, under the recently launched CF Health and Fitness Strategy, the Air Force (along with the Army and Navy) has been given the green light to develop its own health and fitness standard.

The jobs that we ask of our airmen and airwomen are so unique that we must identify what those differences are from a physiological standpoint and measure them accurately,” says Air Force fitness advisor Todd Stride. “The jobs that they are doing are different, so the fitness standards should be different as well.”

And, according to Air Force research manager Dr. Michael Spivock, the transformation in fitness standards is about more than improving operational effectiveness; it’s about ensuring that our fitness standards are in accordance with Canadian law.

“When we develop these fitness standards, we are bound by Canadian human rights law to something called ‘bona fide occupational requirements’,” Dr. Spivock says. “Basically, that tells us that any test we administer has to be representative of a person’s job. It has to be reflective of job requirements and it must hold up in court; therefore, the process we are using to develop these standards is absolutely scientific, not anecdotal.”

So, what does this mean for the average member of the Air Force? Starting in June, a short, job-based survey will be sent to about half of all Air Force personnel, the results of which will identify the physically demanding aspects of people’s occupations. After the results are processed, a team of researchers from Ottawa, including Dr. Spivock and Phil Newton, will travel to select Air Force wings to begin testing personnel on the job to measure the actual physical exertion levels required to perform each job. All this will be translated into a new scientifically based Air Force fitness standard that should be implemented within about two years.

Watch for updates on the Standards of Operational Fitness for Air Force Requirements (SOAR) project as they become available. In the meantime, visit our Newsroom on the DIN for more information.


    http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Community/mapleleaf/article_e.asp?id=4408
 
- This is the end of 'universality of service': The concept that ALL of us must dig a trench, carry a load, etc.  Once U of S is Kaput, there is no longer any excuse to maintain the joke of Unification of the CF.  It's back to the future with the RCN, Cdn Army and RCAF.

- After unification in 1968, former members of the RCN and RCAF had 'vested rights' not to serve in Army situations.  They appear to have a desire to regain that status.

- Logic will win out: we will return to three separate services under one NDA, and will be able to more scientifically employ our physically substandard new members.

- Wheelchair Battalions on the D.I.P. Line, anyone?
 
Whats the problem? The army consistantly makes their own policies even when the CF has one in place. The BFT was put into place as a measure of "bona fide occupational requirements" for the Land Force. (the army disappeared in the 60s). Personally, I like the BFT but even the army does it wrong. They treat it like some special event - Oranges, safety vehicles and water. If you complete it, you get the rest of the day to recover. Some even get the weekend.

Here is the old army coming out, if you can't handle the culture, get out!!!  ;D
 
rifleman said:
Whats the problem? The army consistantly makes their own policies even when the CF has one in place. The BFT was put into place as a measure of "bona fide occupational requirements" for the Land Force. (the army disappeared in the 60s). Personally, I like the BFT but even the army does it wrong. They treat it like some special event - Oranges, safety vehicles and water. If you complete it, you get the rest of the day to recover. Some even get the weekend.

Here is the old army coming out, if you can't handle the culture, get out!!!  ;D
The air force can do what they want as long as I'm not assoiciated with it (ie. under the CF umbrella).  I have trouble when talking to someone and I tell them I'm in the military and they are like "Oh yes, my son's in the military too, I know all about it" when they're son is some navy/ air force clerk who shares next to nothing in common with me.

Also, different elements can have different policies and standards i suppose, but when they appeal to the lowest common denominator and are utter complete PC BS like this, I have a problem with it.

"bona fide occupational requirements"  ::) Gimme a gawd damn break.  How about this, your occupation is the military?  Screw some low ball standard for a pencil pushers.
 
Maybe it's time the Mods lock this one up.  It has certainly outlived it's usefulness.  What started out as a "rant" because someone is pissed that someone else got a tour has turned into the "My element is better than your element" thread.  No better than the RegF vs. ResF threads, IMHO.
For those of you who don't know, there are many operations taking place around the world that have different physical fitness test requirements.  These requirements are the same for anyone going on a particular operation regardless of element!
 
Zoomie said:
Some of those natural-ingrained actions will never leave you.  Still, to this day,  I come to attention at the door way of my superiors office.  I get the scowls, smirks, etc.  I deal with it.  I constantly get teased or whatever you want to call it for being "too army".  Yet I know that if I were still in a green environment, I would be "too slack".  So where am I?  I'm stuck in the middle, trying to conform to my workplace, yet still holding on to my view of the military.

A year ago I came across a situation where an NCM failed to salute - his hands were in his raincoat, his head turned against the driving rain.  My initial reaction to jack this airmen up was squashed with an uncertainty of whether that would be considered "over the top".  I instead did the air force thing - I wrote an email to the respective Chiefs involved.  Two days later I was in the Chief's office being jacked for not jacking up the Corporal.  So lesson learned there - go with your initial reaction.

I find that our Squadron Chiefs (CWO's) are trying their hardest to run a tight ship.  The last couple of Wing Chiefs and Squadron Chiefs have been notorious ball breakers.  They come aboard anyone with sloppy deportment, tell Captains to get their hair cut.  Our Chief's latest battle has been side-burns and enforcing their length.

I find most NCMs still address me as "Sir".  The FE's usually don't - they are a crusty bunch.  As Euro-Wing can attest, there is still a military decorum between the maintainers and the aircrew - it may be relax compared to the Army, but it still exists.

:)

Habits. I have some. Some good, some bad.

During an Air Force posting of mine to an Air Base that shall remain nameless ... my green uniform worked well if I wanted a tour. Also worked well for keeping me away from my actual place of duty and on tasking as often as I wanted it. They had to send someone, of course, and I was quite willing. DART/JNBCD stand-up? Vern wears green. Weapons? Vern wears green. Ice Storm? Vern wears green. Exercise is the States? Vern wears green. 9/11? Vern wears green. Refugees? Deployment? Vern wears green. I had a blast. It was great. It wasn't that they were tasking me because I was green ... it was just because I had actually seen and done some of this "stuff" before ... and the AF can get hit with just as many last-minute fast balls as the Army can dish out.

But, my army ways never left me despite the more social atmosphere of the Air Force. I don't say that in a bad way. I had a great time with the Air Force. I'd come to attention when entering the Wing LEOs office, the W SupOs office, the WChiefs office, the Senior Techs Office, my Sergeants office (who was actually a PO) ... it's just the way I work -- I even salute before entering appropriate offices. This irritated some people, but not others.

But, there came this one time when the army in me just had to be used ... in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, I was the MCpl they put in charge of heading up the Op Apollo deployment -- after we had packed up all the MAKs and fly-away kits along with the 30pers/30 day sustainment kits, water, etc ... I assigned all the chalk numbers to our assorted loads.

Went in to give the briefing at WOps and all went very well and we were good to go. THEN -- someone above my rank, but from Supply piped up with a "but I only see one problem and it's quite serious". What is that says I? "Well, you have ammo and water slated for chalk one." Yes, so what exactly IS the problem Sir? "Well, you're moving million dollar aircraft spares too, and you have modular floors slated for chalk XX on your list." Yes, Sir, so what exactly IS the problem? "Well, they need to be chalk one because you can't just be sitting million dollar aircraft spares on the sand in the desert." SIR!! The spares are crated ... the floors can wait!" "Well, in my deployment experience ..." Vern cuts him off with "And, exactly WHAT deployment experience is that Sir??" He had a CD with clasp on his chest. He got up and departed the room ... and every eye turned to look at me. I then said something to the effect of: Ooops soory, but Mother of gawd ... we were deploying to a war zone and water and ammo is going to get bumped for modular floors (do you guys in the Army even know such a thing existed!!  >:D) !!?? ...

The response was an overwhlming: "Oh no it's not getting bumped anywhere."

When I got back to work, I just headed upstairs as I knew I'd be called to go up there anyway (go figure ...  ;D) ... I was greeted by a very loud: "That's it XXXXXX, I've F'n had it with you -- I'm posting you to ATESS!!" I just said, good enough Sir and went downstairs to my office.

But, every morning after that immediately upon arriving at work, I'd walk upstairs through the Customer Services section and the OR and would lean in his office door and say "Hey Sir -- you got that posting message yet??" It came 2 years later ... but alas it was not to ATESS, rather it was back to the Army. 

Heck, I can't complain -- I enjoyed my time served with all three enviornments ... and the Air Force even promoted me -- twice.  ;)

I figured ... this was a good place to tell that story and to lighten the mood ... it ain't all bad folks. There's good and bad in all three elements. And it's all in your attitude whther or not you're going to make the best and the most of it ... or have a shitty time.

Look after you, look after your troops, don't sweat the small stuff, understand that there are factors at play well beyond some members realm of control.

People don't promote themselves. People don't post themselves. People don't deploy themselves. If you're bitchy or itching at them for them being the beneficiary of those things -- you're bitching about the wrong person. Shit like that causes aneurysms. It'll all wash out in the end --- and credit will come where credit is due ... and despite my extreme irritation of a certain Sir in the Air Force --- I can say that I did get the recognition for that which I had done ... he didn't make it personal. And the Air Force -- is VERY good at recognizing an individuals accomplishments/good work, they make a habit of it.
 
Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
Says who?

I'm wondering that too ...

I'll be at work this Friday after I do mine. As will everyone else.

And, I'll be there on the 13th June after doing it all over again that day too.
 
ArmyVern said:
I'm wondering that too ...

I'll be at work this Friday after I do mine. As will everyone else.

And, I'll be there on the 13th June after doing it all over again that day too.

Depends when you start I might see you  ;D
 
DirtyDog,

I see that you don't want to be associated with the Airforce.  I suggest that you remember that we are all one service here in Canada.  I also see from your profile that you have a whole 1 1/2 years military experience (mostly spent in the trg system, I presume).  Yes, there are "slugs" in the airforce and the Army has their fair share of them too..........I know.........I've seen them !!!!!!  I've had the pleasure of serving in both environments.  Both have their pro's and cons.  We all have a specific job to do to complete a mission.  The infantyman could not complete his job without the Airforce or Navy.  It would be quite the long "hump" to get to Afghanistan, wouldn't it???  Without the infantryman, we (Airforce) wouldn't have a job or purpose either.
We just have different ways of getting the job done.

Ok, the subject of clerks, etc......  You may not like Clerks, Supply Techs, Logistics trades, etc...... But I hope that you know how to procure, issue, or fix  your kit, or complete all of your adminstration needs because if you didn't have the hard working folks who happen to not be on the "front line" you'd be lost.  These folks put in a lot of hours behind the scenes so the Infantryman, Gunner, Trooper, or Sapper can do their job.

As far as the BFT goes.........it's good, but not perfect.  As far as the Express test goes........I personally think it sucks (too easy), but that's my opinion.  I think there should be one CF standard. 

Just remember that when you get more exposure to the CF that we all need each other, so stop bashing elements that you have no knowledge of.  I'm not trying to start anything here, but don't bash anybody just because of their element.  We all bleed red and white!!!! 

Let me know if I'm just ranting, but I'm tired of uninformed pers bashing the elements that they do not belong to, or have any knowledge of.  If you want me to start bashing the army and it's ways of doing things, I'd have to block book a whole day to sit down and type it out, but that's not what I'm about................I understand that we need each other.
 
2 Cdo said:
The base staff at CFB Kingston! ;D You know you're not in battalion anymore. :eek:

Good thing I don't work for the base then.  AT the base, yes, but not for them.  What can I say...I'm hard core.
 
I totally agree with the OP. The Air Force is currently in the process of switching to the IBTS - which includes the BFT as the standard for deployment training. Any one that is deploying to Mirage or TAF will complete the BFT, among other things (C7 PWT2, gas hut trg etc etc). We even being told to possibly brace for the currency to change to one year for all qualifications.. Thats right! gas hut every year.

I think it's time the fly boys come back to earth and remember SOLDIER FIRST!
 
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