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beret without cap badge

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RDJP said:
Not a big deal....I was just hoping if there was a regulation there specific to being charged, that someone could point it out.  I'll go with the point that the CDS authorizes dress policy, dress policy states a badge, therefore it should be worn unless you are going against the CDS.

Before you do that, is there a School SOP that perhaps might lay out when / why / what?

Wouldn't be the first time an exception was made based on something specific that didn't apply to the CF at large, but is auth specifically for certain times / places / reasons  :2c:
 

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Capt. Happy said:
Before you do that, is there a School SOP that perhaps might lay out when / why / what?

Wouldn't be the first time an exception was made based on something specific that didn't apply to the CF at large, but is auth specifically for certain times / places / reasons  :2c:

If that were the case, I would expect to have had that shown to us first, instead of asking us to prove a reg for being charged without one.

Then again, like my father-in-law says "Don't assume....makes an ass out of u and me." ;)
 

cupper

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recceguy said:
Beret. The beret shall be worn evenly on the
head, with the sweatband 2.5 cm (1 in.)
above the eyebrows, the badge centred over
the left eye,
and the crown pulled downward
to the right. The break of the sweatband shall
be worn centred at the back of the head, with
no draw string visible.

The beret shall be worn with the badge centred over the left eye.

You need a badge to centre it over the left eye.

Seems pretty clear to me.

The staff on this course should be using their time more effectivley and efficiently. People are wasting precious time with this stupid fuckery.

It still doesn't address the two situations brought up previously, Pte Bloggins hasn't been yet given his CF badge to put on the beret, and Cpl Wingnut removed his capbadge (presumes that it is removable) before going on patrol.

One can still put the beret on and align it without the capbadge, as it is quite obvious where the badge would be if it were there.
 

McG

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RDJP said:
Someone wants cap badges on, someone wants them off until the test....
Who are the two "someones"?  That is more relevant in deciding what is okay or not.
This is something that the TE CO/Cmdt could make a decision either way.  Nobody will be getting charged for following that direction.
 

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RDJP said:
If that were the case, I would expect to have had that shown to us first, instead of asking us to prove a reg for being charged without one.

Then again, like my father-in-law says "Don't assume....makes an *** out of u and me." ;)

I know when I did BMOQ it was expected that each one of us had read the SOP's during the first couple weeks there. In the blue area they were posted near the elevators on every floor. It covers a ton of stuff and it may very well be in there.
 

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cupper said:
It still doesn't address the two situations brought up previously, Pte Bloggins hasn't been yet given his CF badge to put on the beret, and Cpl Wingnut removed his capbadge (presumes that it is removable) before going on patrol.

One can still put the beret on and align it without the capbadge, as it is quite obvious where the badge would be if it were there.

You really ought to hang your 'Barrack Room Lawyer' shingle first. Not all berets have the obvious backing. Besides the reg doesn't say backing, it says badge. Did you get that part? If you even had a schmick and knew the regs, you'd know the reg that determines the placement of the badge. Once that placement has been determined, the rest of the reg comes into force.

Assholes of every stripe have, through the ages, tried to buck the idea of 'uniform' through perceived 'superior knowledge' of the misinterpretted facts. Some, and it's a great some, have served time in detention for trying to be an authority on a subject that they really aren't that cognizant of.

That would include expats that have been disassoiciated with the current regs and military for about ten or more years.

 

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RDJP said:
That would be true if it was their time that was being wasted, but it's pretty easy to tell the recruits to come back next weekend with the info.

That makes it even more ludicrous and disgusting. That some course staff are getting their jollies by making candidates participate in their buffoonery is also unprofessional and needs a real hard look by the unit and standards. Wasting recruits time with cock instead of using the time constructively for real help and reinforcement of lessons already taught

If it were up to me, the staff would be researching their own charges and warnings.
 

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I believe the dress regs also specify rules for the wearing of nametags/nametapes.  Is a recruit to be charged if they haven't been issued proper nametapes yet?  It took us almost over 2 months to get issued our proper nametapes to wear on CADPAT.  Many of my peers, all the way through BMOQ, never received their proper stitch-on nametapes for their NCDs.

I guess my point is that there is a proper, regulation-specified way to wear the uniform but those regulations don't necessarily match reality in the case of brand new members. It's possible they didn't consider recruits who don't quite have all their kit issued to them yet.  I imagine someone removing their cap badge because they feel like it, once they have been issued one, is more of a problem.

There are also regulations on the proper paying of compliments, including how and when a salute is to be performed.  If a recruit/OCdt doesn't yet know how to properly salute, should they be permitted to wear a cap badge and thus expected to salute? (Also, does anyone know if the regs specify you must have a cap badge to salute?  That's what I have been taught, but I also salute officers when I'm wearing a toque...)

It sounds to me like an oversight, but not a very important one because people don't usually care whether it's in the regs that a cap brass must be worn or not, in the case of new recruits.

**EDIT: 3 edits for clarity.
 

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Name tags can be fulfilled with a simple piece of masking tape and a magic marker, if need be.

Cap badges not being worn to show who has been taught how to salute is downright lazy and is brought about by people that don't want to be responsible in their job.

If people are that concerned then the saluting lesson should be taught to recruits on the first morning of basic.

For whatever reason this seems to be some sort of recent phenomenon. Thousand of personell have passed through recruit training, with cap badges being issued from the start and it hasn't caused the tit twisting angst that seems to be bothering some here and elsewhere.

If an officer can't tell a brand new recruit at a glance or confirm their suspicions with a single question, perhaps he should not have been issued a commissioning scroll in the first place
 

medicineman

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recceguy said:
Name tags can be fulfilled with a simple piece of masking tape and a magic marker, if need be.

Cap badges not being worn to show who has been taught how to salute is downright lazy and is brought about by people that don't want to be responsible in their job.

If people are that concerned then the saluting lesson should be taught to recruits on the first morning of basic.

For whatever reason this seems to be some sort of recent phenomenon. Thousand of personell have passed through recruit training, with cap badges being issued from the start and it hasn't caused the tit twisting angst that seems to be bothering some here and elsewhere.

If an officer can't tell a brand new recruit at a glance or confirm their suspicions with a single question, perhaps he should not have been issued a commissioning scroll in the first place

Pssst - I went through Cornwallis in 88 - that was the norm then.  You had to earn the cornflake in 4th week by passing your saluting test and were given a buy until then if you gibbled up saluting an officer...if however you had a cornflake and screwed up saluting an officer, you were done like dinner.

Making someone earn their cornflake was one of those things to give them a sense of personal accomplishment as they went through recruit training.  Not sure what things are like now, but as a rule, we were generally confined to barracks/base for 4-5 weeks minimun anyway - we wouldn't be allowed out wearing no cornflake, as we'd be in a public place out of dress...in fact if you made it to 5th week and not earned it, you were recoursed and would likely remain CB'd until you unfrigged yourself.  Not sure how far back this went, but friends of mine that went through in earlier 80's were the same.

As for saluting first day of basic, most people can't come to attention, much less get a grip on saluting on the march, their first day  :nod: - my dad was an apprentice gunner many moons ago, and all they were told to do until they were formally taught at whatever drill class at whatever time frame their training sched had them learn saluting, was either to stand to attention or check arms and give an eyes left or right.

For me, I think earning your first badge, then getting to toss it when you get your trade badge, should be considered one of those little milestones in your military life - a big baby step as it were.

:2c:

MM

Edited for speeling
 

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Let's clear some facts up here as I am a little slow:

This is a reserve BMQ run on weekends.

The course WO (or officer) feels that students SHOULD have their badges and has instructed the students (?) to find out why they aren't wearing them?

or, The course WO (or officer) feels the students SHOULD be wearing their cap badges and wants the course staff to find the answer as to what regs state they DON'T wear them?

I am trying to figure out who is potentially in trouble, student or staff?  What is the end result intended by whoever initiated this wild goose chase?

Thanks.
 

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Eye In The Sky said:
was proud to put my cornflake up after saluting several garbage cans (literally) while marching...

Oh we used to dream of salutin' garbage cans! Woulda' been a step up to us. We used to salute a drain pipe, runnin' from the washrooms on the top floor. We used to salute it whenever someone flushed too, and the pipe would leak! Garbage cans!? Hmph.

With full respect to Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen sketch... :salute:

 

Nfld Sapper

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blackberet17 said:
Oh we used to dream of salutin' garbage cans! Woulda' been a step up to us. We used to salute a drain pipe, runnin' from the washrooms on the top floor. We used to salute it whenever someone flushed too, and the pipe would leak! Garbage cans!? Hmph.

With full respect to Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen sketch... :salute:

Psst.... we had to salute a stain on the wall..... you gents had it good with garbage cans and drain pipes...

;D
 

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NFLD Sapper said:
Psst.... we had to salute a stain on the wall..... you gents had it good with garbage cans and drain pipes...

;D

......a dry stain?....luxury.......

:rofl:
 

Eye In The Sky

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medicineman said:
Pssst - I went through Cornwallis in 88 - that was the norm then.  You had to earn the cornflake in 4th week by passing your saluting test and were given a buy until then if you gibbled up saluting an officer...if however you had a cornflake and screwed up saluting an officer, you were done like dinner.

Making someone earn their cornflake was one of those things to give them a sense of personal accomplishment as they went through recruit training.  Not sure what things are like now, but as a rule, we were generally confined to barracks/base for 4-5 weeks minimun anyway - we wouldn't be allowed out wearing no cornflake, as we'd be in a public place out of dress...in fact if you made it to 5th week and not earned it, you were recoursed and would likely remain CB'd until you unfrigged yourself.  Not sure how far back this went, but friends of mine that went through in earlier 80's were the same.

As for saluting first day of basic, most people can't come to attention, much less get a grip on saluting on the march, their first day  :nod: - my dad was an apprentice gunner many moons ago, and all they were told to do until they were formally taught at whatever drill class at whatever time frame their training sched had them learn saluting, was either to stand to attention or check arms and give an eyes left or right.

For me, I think earning your first badge, then getting to toss it when you get your trade badge, should be considered one of those little milestones in your military life - a big baby step as it were.

:2c:

MM

Edited for speeling

Good post, and I agree with the "earning it gives a sense of accomplishment" stuff, having experienced it AND doing this on BMQs I was staff on.

Our saluting test was pretty simple when I did it in '89, 12 Platoon, 8930 (hoo rah!).  We were in a single file.  One of the staff, in my case a MS NWT, was at the front of the line and he'd asked several question on rank like "I am in a Navy uniform and I am wearing a crown on my sleeve, what rank am I", that kind of stuff.  Once he was satisfied, he'd tell you to carry on.  There were 3 big garbage cans lined up on the road, each one with an instructor beside it.  We'd march down the road, and salute to the left, right as we passed the cans.  If you f&&ckedit up, off you'd go to the back of the line.  At the end of the 'saluting lane', you'd halt, pause 2 3, salute to the front IIRC.  Now,the shorter the line got, the more it was full of the dopies who kept screwing it up. The last few going throw had us howling with the *drill* they were doing.  ;D

After everyone was thru, we had a Platoon parade, and our cornflakes were presented to us from our Coy 2 I/C, who for us was an attractive young AF Capt, who I remember well because...she was the first Officer I saluted.  Oh and she was smokin hot in her AF blue SS shirt.  8)

It wasn't a big deal in hindsight, but we were all pretty pround of ourselves AND we got to meet our Coy 2 I/C  :nod:
 

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recceguy said:
You really ought to hang your 'Barrack Room Lawyer' shingle first. Not all berets have the obvious backing. Besides the reg doesn't say backing, it says badge. Did you get that part? If you even had a schmick and knew the regs, you'd know the reg that determines the placement of the badge. Once that placement has been determined, the rest of the reg comes into force.

Assholes of every stripe have, through the ages, tried to buck the idea of 'uniform' through perceived 'superior knowledge' of the misinterpretted facts. Some, and it's a great some, have served time in detention for trying to be an authority on a subject that they really aren't that cognizant of.

That would include expats that have been disassoiciated with the current regs and military for about ten or more years.

I wasn't playing barracks room lawyer. I was making an observation that what was posted did not cover the two situations which were previously noted. The implied question was how do you address those specific cases. Situations that I'm pretty sure those of us who are current or former members are familiar with and may well have encountered during our careers.

Regardless of how long they have been out of the service or where they currently reside. :nana:

If you would like me to play barracks room lawyer, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a long diatribe that you could spend countless hours ripping apart. And I would then point out how you need to work on your subtlety, as it took me no time at all to understand that you were calling me a bad name.  :sarcasm:
 

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cupper said:
I wasn't playing barracks room lawyer. I was making an observation that what was posted did not cover the two situations which were previously noted. The implied question was how do you address those specific cases. Situations that I'm pretty sure those of us who are current or former members are familiar with and may well have encountered during our careers.

Regardless of how long they have been out of the service or where they currently reside. :nana:

If you would like me to play barracks room lawyer, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a long diatribe that you could spend countless hours ripping apart. And I would then point out how you need to work on your subtlety, as it took me no time at all to understand that you were calling me a bad name.  :sarcasm:

It's one thing I've never been accused of, is being subtle.

And on that line yes, I was taking the piss out of you ;)

I apologise.

Over celebrating the addition of a new male generation to the family name :blotto:
 

cupper

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recceguy said:
It's one thing I've never been accused of, is being subtle.

And on that line yes, I was taking the piss out of you ;)

I apologise.

Over celebrating the addition of a new male generation to the family name :blotto:

No prob. I figured there was some piss taking going on too.

Congrats on the arival Recceguy 2.0  :salute:
 

X Royal

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recceguy said:
For whatever reason this seems to be some sort of recent phenomenon. Thousand of personell have passed through recruit training, with cap badges being issued from the start and it hasn't caused the tit twisting angst that seems to be bothering some here and elsewhere.
As already pointed out this is not a recent phenomenon. When I went through Cornwallis in 1978 it was the practice.
recceguy said:
That makes it even more ludicrous and disgusting. That some course staff are getting their jollies by making candidates participate in their buffoonery is also unprofessional and needs a real hard look by the unit and standards. Wasting recruits time with **** instead of using the time constructively for real help and reinforcement of lessons already taught

If it were up to me, the staff would be researching their own charges and warnings.
I agree 100%.
RDJP said:
That would be true if it was their time that was being wasted, but it's pretty easy to tell the recruits to come back next weekend with the info.
Not a big deal....I was just hoping if there was a regulation there specific to being charged, that someone could point it out.  I'll go with the point that the CDS authorizes dress policy, dress policy states a badge, therefore it should be worn unless you are going against the CDS.
And in the meantime, I will do whatever it is that I am instructed to do by the higher rank in front of me....just like Forrest.
As this is a reserve course I'd like to know what authority the staff has to assign homework?
When off duty (& not being paid or on DND property or in uniform) you are not subject to the NDA.
You have no obligation to work for free.
Are the staff willing to authorize paid time for this research. I doubt it.
 
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