Battleships

[Nfld Sapper]

Sitting a CVN off the coast and sending in sorties of fighter/bombers to hit targets risks the lives of those pilots.

Sitting a BB off the coast and sending in volleys of 16" shells risks no one's lives.

Just my 2 cents.

But can a battleship recall those shells if something at the traget changed?

At least with aircraft you have the ability to cancel or change the mission once the go is given.

My 2 cents, your mileage will vary.

 

[hugh19]

Aircraft do a much better job.  Why is everyone wrapped up in 16"? The guns ranged from 11 to 18.1 inches.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Aircraft do a much better job.   Why is everyone wrapped up in 16"? The guns ranged from 11 to 18.1 inches.

Maybe because we seem to have focused on the Iowa Class.

Iowa class
Country:  United States
Displacement: 45,000 tons
Armament: 9 × 16 in (406 mm) guns, 20 × 5 in (127 mm) guns, 80 x 40 mm AA guns, 49 x 20 mm AA guns (1983 modification added 32 x Tomahawk and 16 x Harpoon missiles and 4 x Phalanx CIWS)
Armor: 12.1 inch (307 mm) belt; 19.7 inch (500 mm) turret; 7.5 inch (191 mm) deck
Speed: 33 knots (61 km/h)
Ships in class: 4 completed plus 2 planned: USS Iowa, USS New Jersey, USS Missouri, USS Wisconsin, USS Illinois(not completed), and USS Kentucky(not completed)
Commissioned: 22 February 1943
Fate: Iowa & Wisconsin maintained in US mothball fleet, Missouri & New Jersey transferred for use as museums, Illinois & Kentucky cancelled before completion. Bow of USS Kentucky used to repair USS Wisconsin.

 

[hugh19]

My opinion is if you want guns for NGS build a monitor, but other than that aircraft do a much better job than a BB for ASW/ASuW AAW and power projection.

 

[whitehorse]

How about a CBG with cruise missiles and Armed UAV's? No threat to pilots then. 'Recall' of weapon once launched is still an issue with cruise missiles but ultimately the BB is a concept of the past - too many people required to man them.

 

[hugh19]

SO you are want a UAV to provide CAP?  I don't see that happening for a long time yet.

 

[whitehorse]

No, but to do a strike mission where a pilot's life is more at risk. They are already doing this.

The point is that while a 16" shell doesn't have a pilot, nor does a Tomahawk or a Predator.

The navies who actually have these weapons systems have weighed the advantadges of manned strike missions versus 16" shells versus Tomahawk/predator havemade their calculations and the consensus is:

BB gone - history
Manned strike missions - only where targeting actually requires direct human oversight
unmanned strike misions - more prevalent and on the ascendancy

 

[Infanteer]

I remember reading somewhere that we really haven't considered that missile technology may have displaced the aircraft carrier just as carrier-based aviation displaced the battleship.  Anyone ever play that old naval game "Harpoon".  I remember sinking the Foch on the first day of the war by filling the sky up with a couple hundred anti-surface missiles.

Carriers can project alot of power, but how is a military to react when one goes down with 5000+ aboard due to a swarm of cheap (relatively speaking) missiles that simply overwhelm all defences.  The submarine may yet prove to be the king of the seas.

 

[aesop081]

 The submarine may yet prove to be the king of the seas.

The nuclear age made that possible. Until then "submersible" was a more accurate term. That being said, very few countries are capable of this threat. The carrier and its battle group ( which often includes its own submarines) still rules the seas. It is a powerful symbol of resolve and strenght and punches well above its weight in time of crisis. The battleship cannot impose itself with the same effect on a nation and neither can an SSN/SSGN.

 

[xena]

WRT missile domination:  wasn't that the same kind of thing where a few decades ago people were thinking that fighter aircraft (particularly interceptors) were going to be obsolete?  That didn't happen for multiple reasons.  Would any of those same reasons apply to keeping Carriers afloat in a missile rich environment?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

What else would you use to place off the coast of a country you want to wake up? Or underscore a point?

Nothing says hello better then a super carrier with 90+ aircraft and its escorts and auxillaries.

 

[genesis98]

All things aside, NGS I think became obsolete when the Airborne gunship was concieved. The ability to hover over a target and directly observe TICS and support them is a great benefit.

 

[hugh19]

So why have the Germans fitted out ships capable of housing a Panzer2000 (?) 155mm turret?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

All things aside, NGS I think became obsolete when the Airborne gunship was concieved. The ability to hover over a target and directly observe TICS and support them is a great benefit.

So let me ask you this....is air cover available 24 hours a day? An aircraft is not much good staying over a target once it expends its ordenance now is it?

 

[genesis98]

So why have the Germans fitted out ships capable of housing a Panzer2000 (?) 155mm turret?

A swiss army knife is still a swiss army knife no matter how you look at it.

Having a dedicated tool designed to do a specific job usually leads to a better endstate.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

So why have the Germans fitted out ships capable of housing a Panzer2000 (?) 155mm turret?

A buddy of mine that was on the Hamburg at the time told me thay had a lot of problems with corrosion so it looks like the program was dropped. So he has heard anyways....lower decker like us sledge.

A swiss army knife is still a swiss army knife no matter how you look at it.

Having a dedicated tool designed to do a specific job usually leads to a better endstate.

that does not really back up your claim thats NGS is obsolete now does it?

 

[genesis98]

So let me ask you this....is air cover available 24 hours a day? An aircraft is not much good staying over a target once it expends its ordenance now is it?

Is a ship much good offshore once its ordenance is expended? (it's the same argument)

In todays battlespace air support usually is a 24 hour thing when there are TIC.

If a naval gun is positioned offshore of a hostile country and the range of it's NGS are 65km then there is no possible way it can get closer to engage a target if the TIC are out of range.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Is a ship much good offshore once its ordenance is expended? (it's the same argument)

How many sorties does a gunship have to meet to match the amount of explosive power a ship brings into the fray?

In todays battlespace air support usually is a 24 hour thing when there are TIC.

Thats not always a guarantee.

If a naval gun is positioned offshore of a hostile country and the range of it's NGS are 65km then there is no possible way it can get closer to engage a target if the TIC are out of range.

true but by that the time of the boys thats wear green have hopefully siezed some airbases as they have moved in land so they could have some land based air craft moving along with them as they advanced.

 

[hugh19]

Gee I guess have a AOR to restock ammo would never do. Can you reammo a helo in midflight?? ;D

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Rearming aircraft in midflight would be a nice capability for sure.... but its one that does not exist as far as I know.