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Ban kirpan from Parliament: Bloc

ARMY_101

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George Wallace said:
As the just of their argument is that this is "for Public Safety", are they considering the kirpan a dangerous weapon?  If they are, then they may want to take a look around the room that they are sitting in.  There are hundreds of objects in the room that can be used as a weapon.  For instance, you can take your pen/pencil and use it to jab and kill someone who may annoy you in the next cubicle.  Are we now going to ban pens and pencils?

I'd say they're also concerned that it is a weapon and looks like a weapon - it's not something improvised like a pencil that could be used in the heat of the moment. It's a knife.
 

George Wallace

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ballz said:
Come on... I agree that people are the danger but comparing a real dagger to a pencil?

I see you missed the whole meaning of what I said. 

ARMY_101

Can you tell me what a weapon looks like?  I would say that a weapon would not appear as a weapon in the majority of cases, until such time as it was actually used as one.  A baseball bat is not a weapon on the sports field, but when used in a back alley by a thug, then it is.  A pair of sissors don't appear to be a weapon until such time someone uses a pair to stab someone.  A rifle to someone who has never seen one, would not appear threatening until such time that it was used to shoot someone.  The sword hanging on a wall as a decoration isn't a weapon until such time as someone is run through with it.  We could go on and on with this.  Yes.  A pencil is a sharp object, just as a knife or sword is.  And if you can't see the outside of the box thinking in this and idiocy of where our PC society is headed, then I guess you are missing the point as well.
 
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aesop081

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George Wallace said:
are they considering the kirpan a dangerous weapon? 

Why not ? Look at what a select few managed to do with box cutters...........

As far as your pencil argument George.......pencils are a necessary tool for the HoC to do its buisness. The kirpan is not.
 

George Wallace

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A lot of things are not necessary for the HoC, but they are found there. 

The comparison has been brought up about decorative Highland Dress already.  Where is the difference? 

Is it more offensive that a kirpan is worn as a decoration in the HoC or that a member of the HoC has an agenda to break up the nation?
 

Loachman

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CDN Aviator said:
pencils are a necessary tool for the HoC to do its buisness. The kirpan is not.

That is completely irrelevant. If somebody is determined to cause harm, it makes no difference if something is a necessary tool for the business at hand or not. If it can be adapted for use as a weapon, it becomes just as useful a weapon as a certain religious symbol.

This is the whole fallacy upon which our idiotic weapons laws are based - seeking to prevent crime through restriction of inanimate objects rather than human perpetrators of crimes.
 
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aesop081

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George Wallace said:
The comparison has been brought up about decorative Highland Dress already.  Where is the difference? 

Hey, if it was up to me, any religious object would be removed but i'm in the group thats allowed to be offended so.......

that a member of the HoC has an agenda to break up the nation?

That member has been rightfully ellected by his constituents. Democracy's a real b***h ain't it !!!
 

Fishbone Jones

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We all know that this is going nowhere. Well, actually that's wrong. What it will do is raise the prominence of the Bloc, and garner more votes in the upcoming election, from the xenophobes that consider anyone not 'pure laine' not good enough for 'their' Quebec.

This is not about right or wrong, or whether the kirpan is dangerous, democracy, weapons or anything else. It is pure political shit stirring by the Bloc who know there is not a snowballs chance in hell of this ever getting through Parliment, but it raises their profile and garners votes for them.

A vote is a vote, even if it is cast by a total moron.

Quit getting wrapped around the axle about it.
 

Kat Stevens

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The very symbol of Parliament, The Mace, is a carryover from one of the most offensive minded hand tools in history, and it sits in a place of prominence.  I'd be more worried, if a Member were so inclined to go berserk, that he'd grab the mace and mash someones skull than I would giving a nasty little poke with a kirpan.
 

Journeyman

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Maybe if there was the occasional threat (or delivery) of violence within Parliament, it might focus our elected reperesentatives on the business of actually governing, rather than the posturing drivel that currently fills the Hansard.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Journeyman said:
Maybe if there was the occasional threat (or delivery) of violence within Parliament, it might focus our elected reperesentatives on the business of actually governing, rather than the posturing drivel that currently fills the Hansard.

Kinda like Whack-a-Mole. Have a couple of guys with big mallets running around. Every time a MP stands up and says something stupid, he gets whacked on the top of the head and put back in his seat.

Hell, I'd retire and do that job for free ;D
 

larry Strong

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recceguy said:
Kinda like Whack-a-Mole. Have a couple of guys with big mallets running around. Every time a MP stands up and says something stupid, he gets whacked on the top of the head and put back in his seat.

Hell, I'd retire and do that job for free ;D

Can I be the second? ;D
 

57Chevy

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Is the Kirpan a weapon or not ?

Historically, the kirpan was a defensive weapon: (Wikipedia)
Kirpan is not a weapon: (Ignatieff)

A sign in a window in India:
 

ARMY_101

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George Wallace said:
I see you missed the whole meaning of what I said. 

ARMY_101

Can you tell me what a weapon looks like?  I would say that a weapon would not appear as a weapon in the majority of cases, until such time as it was actually used as one.  A baseball bat is not a weapon on the sports field, but when used in a back alley by a thug, then it is.  A pair of sissors don't appear to be a weapon until such time someone uses a pair to stab someone.  A rifle to someone who has never seen one, would not appear threatening until such time that it was used to shoot someone.  The sword hanging on a wall as a decoration isn't a weapon until such time as someone is run through with it.  We could go on and on with this.  Yes.  A pencil is a sharp object, just as a knife or sword is.  And if you can't see the outside of the box thinking in this and idiocy of where our PC society is headed, then I guess you are missing the point as well.

Aside from the fact that Parliament needs pens and pencils to do business, it seems a little sensationalist to bring up that anything could be a weapon as a defence to allowing a weapon into Parliament.

If nothing else, I'm sure knives are more commonly used as weapons than pencils.  That in itself should be enough to warrant the attention of some sort of weapon being brought into Parliament, although I do agree that this is just some posturing to reinforce the Bloc's position on kirpans as weapons.

Let's also not forget kirpans are not just ceremonial: not only is their purpose to be a defensive weapon, but even ceremonial kirpans have been drawn and used in violent Sikh protests.

I'd be for having the person required to declare they are carrying a ceremonial kirpan on their person.  If it's below several layers of clothing then it's out of reach for quick use, but it's still with the person to avoid violating their religion.
 

Fishbone Jones

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If they are just ceremonial, why can't they be pinned or riveted so they can't be withdrawn from the sheath?
 

chrisf

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That is a fabulous question... why can't they just be riveted or otherwise sealed?

I've have no issues with kirpans, as weapons or other, if it were up to me, I'd allow open carry of firearms by anyone who could prove competence, but that's an entirely different matter.

I've heard of Kirpans being "peace-bonded", tied into their sheaths to prevent them from being removed, so why not a rivet, epoxy, or somthing else to prevent it from being removed. Depending on how you interpret the logic behind carrying the kirpan (Being able to draw it to prevent violence from what I can gather), having it riveted or epoxied may not meet the requirement, but then neither would peace bonding (Though the latter would only slow down drawing it, not stop it all together).
 
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Journeyman said:
Maybe if there was the occasional threat (or delivery) of violence within Parliament, it might focus our elected Representatives on the business of actually governing, rather than the posturing drivel that currently fills the Hansard.

+1 on that!  If those in government are so concerned about a Canadian (whom they are supposed to be serving) bringing a knife to parliament then perhaps they should make more of an effort to not give the bearer of that knife a reason to use it!  Parliament is Canadian soil, and I see no reason why anyone should be prevented from carrying anything there that they wouldn't be able to carry anywhere else in Canada. 

A pencil isn't a weapon?  Anyone who has seen "The Dark Knight" would beg to differ!  >:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KX3OriDpgg
 

ModlrMike

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ARMY_101 said:
If nothing else, I'm sure knives are more commonly used as weapons than pencils. 

Probably, but I wager more lives have been lost through the stroke of a pen than a blade.
 

George Wallace

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ARMY_101 said:
Let's also not forget kirpans are not just ceremonial: not only is their purpose to be a defensive weapon, but even ceremonial kirpans have been drawn and used in violent Sikh protests.

Let's not forget that Scots also wear dirks in their socks, not always for ceremonial purposes.  They have also been used to draw blood. 
 

Edward Campbell

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George Wallace said:
Let's not forget that Scots also wear dirks in their socks, not always for ceremonial purposes.  They have also been used to draw blood.


Actually Scots (and, mostly, pseudo-Scots) wear a sgian-dubh tucked into the hose. The dirk is a short sword worn with full dress/formal dress.

 
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