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Bad habits developed by civilian pilots

trampbike said:
Isn't this fact simply a consequence of the way the airplanes (especially fighters) were designed in the West? Why was it choosen in the first place to build aircraft that can't sustain 0 or negative G?

Most can, but not as much negative as they can positive. Why bother? Humans are less comfortable with negative G than positive, and less tolerant than aircraft can be designed to endure.

Do you really want a fighter pilot barfing into his oxygen mask during critical manoeuvring?

Other than for the entertainment value...
 
trampbike said:
1.

Is that 3 degrees glidepath something essential that is always done in training (even in the Grob)?
The airplane I fly most often has a glide ratio of about 9 to 1, so with the engine out in a no wind condition, the gliding angle is about 6 degrees. I suppose the Grob has a much better glide ratio, but still most light SE airplanes glide steeper than 3 degrees. Following a 3 degrees glidepath ensures you won't make it to the runway if you have an engine failure.
Most approaches flown by military aircraft will be via a 3 degree glidepath - whether it be a factor of flying an ILS or simply flying the VFR pattern.  VASI and PAPI present all aviators with an ideal stable approach path, coincidentally this is 3 degrees.  Exceptions to this rule would be in the case of STOL, PFL and other abnormal landing approaches.

2. Cheklists. Are every items memorized (for sure the emergency procedures are) or do you use a written checklist?
All aircrew memorize their "red pages" - these could be as many as 20-30 individual checks of 2-15 steps each.  The normal operating aircraft checklist is a "challenge and response" style - usually only one member actually has the check list - the responses are all memorized.  By a rule, the challenges are almost always read verbatim from the actual checklist - no paraphrasing or short cuts permitted.
 
Thank you for the answers.

Loachman said:
Pushing increases the angle of attack

???
I might be missing something, but the only way I can see that be true is if you have a negative AoA and consider that when you push, your negative AoA increases...
Please enlighten me.

Olivier


 
trampbike said:
I might be missing something, but the only way I can see that be true is if you have a negative AoA and consider that when you push, your negative AoA increases...
Please enlighten me.

Olivier

It's been a long time since I had to understand aerodynamics rather than simply accept the fact that they work, let alone teach or explain them - and seized-wing aerodynamics not at all since early 1982 - so I cannot do that elegantly, and not without sketching a diagram. Somebody else may be able to.

As the aircraft rotates nose down, the airflow vector is moving a little closer to the vertical relative to the underside of the wing.
 
trampbike said:
Thank you for the answers.

???
I might be missing something, but the only way I can see that be true is if you have a negative AoA and consider that when you push, your negative AoA increases...
Please enlighten me.

Olivier

That's exactly the case, otherwise the wing would not make lift in the "negative" direction.

What WILL be different is the proportionality of the CL v AOA function for negative AOAs if the airfoil is asymmetrical (highly likely in modern aircraft).


Regards
G2G
 
I am a non flyer and always wanted to fly but failed my  medical due to colour vision ( CV3 for own safety ratings). I did not realize you  could write a test as RCAF pilot and get  a CPL , that  is very  cool, I figured you had to dothat  on your own time and own dime. Learn something new here thanks for the education , finally one thing that  the military  gives you  that  take civilly  street, unlike 404s in Ontario lol
 
Good2Golf said:
That's exactly the case, otherwise the wing would not make lift in the "negative" direction.

What WILL be different is the proportionality of the CL v AOA function for negative AOAs if the airfoil is asymmetrical (highly likely in modern aircraft).


Regards
G2G

Yeah I get that. Few airplanes can developp as much lift under negative Gs as they can under postive. I know Pitts and other pure aerobatic airplanes sometimes have symetrical wings (see the outside loop in line abreast formation: http://www.pittspecials.com/videos.html ).

What I don't get is how pushing, while under positive Gs (even close to 0), can increase your AoA as Loachman pointed out. I always see the elevators as my AoA control. The more I pull, the greater the AoA, the more I push, the lower the AoA, no matter what the airplane attitude is. So if it is true that pushing can increase your AoA more than rolling/pulling in a nose high recovery, I'm really missing something.
I imagine that the procedure of rolling/pulling/rolling is a good way to prevent flow reversal or tumbles, but I really don't know much about the details.

Regards
Olivier
 
I did some searching on the interweb.

Most sites gave the corrective action for nose-high attitudes as "lower the nose".

I am presuming, therefore, that the average civilian definition of "unusual attitudes" is somewhat less extreme than the military one. Aircraft characteristics may also be an influencing factor, along with pilot proficiency, training, and experience.

In Moose Jaw, on the Tutor, the technique was to roll towards the nearest horizon, allow the nose to descend, and, once sufficient airspeed had been regained, roll the wings level. Adding power was also in there. When at, or close to, the critical angle of attack and with the airspeed bleeding off and the nose way above the horizon, pushing forward could easily induce a stall. This was demonstrated.

Unusual attitudes are usually encountered while flying in cloud, either due to attitude indicator or other instrument failure or disorientation. My preference would be a self-induced controllable roll than an inadvertent stall under that circumstance.

Actually, my much higher preference is the cow-dodging environment rather than the cloud-dodging one.

Some of the discussion on a couple of sites talked about hammerhead stalls resulting from very high nose-up attitudes. That may be alright in a propeller-driven aircraft with an aerobatically-experienced pilot. It may not be so alright in a propeller-driven aircraft with a less-experienced pilot or a jet (and that's where the vast bulk of my limited seized-wing time derives) - airflow through a turbine is probably disrupted significantly during a hammerhead stall.

Most helicopters do not enjoy less-than-one-gee manoeuvres either, so we do the same thing - roll towards the nearest horizon.

There is some discussion of the rolling recovery at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/110130/ but it is based more on reduced G as well.
 
As an ex civilian flight instructor I can tell you the civilian procedure for a stall or spin is to lower the nose (in the case of the spin also apply opposite rudder) to "break" the stall and increase airflow over the wings/ increase airspeed. The only thing I can think of is that in military jets (especially fast air) you are probably going at a speed where pushing the nose down, would  probably induce enough negative G to be very uncomfortable, vs rolling to the horizon and pulling.
 
The rolling recovery was designed to (help) prevent one from entering a stall or spin.

Once in one of those, the normal recoveries applied.
 
At first I thought about starting a new thread for my next question, but I'm not too sure it deserved it, so I'll ask it here.

An aileron roll is a pretty basic maneuver. A 360 degrees turn around the longitudinal axis of an airplane. When done properly, the entry and exit altitude should be the same (raise the nose high enough considering your roll rate and entry speed). I do not doubt that any military pilot can do it easily, yet on EVERY single video I saw of a military airplane performing an aileron roll (except for airshows), it exits at a lower altitude. Why is that?
 
trampbike said:
At first I thought about starting a new thread for my next question, but I'm not too sure it deserved it, so I'll ask it here.

An aileron roll is a pretty basic maneuver. A 360 degrees turn around the longitudinal axis of an airplane. When done properly, the entry and exit altitude should be the same (raise the nose high enough considering your roll rate and entry speed). I do not doubt that any military pilot can do it easily, yet on EVERY single video I saw of a military airplane performing an aileron roll (except for airshows), it exits at a lower altitude. Why is that?

Asymmetrical drag coupling of the ailerons inducing a yaw rate, exacerbated by offset of the aircraft flight path from the extended longitudinal axis.

If you just use ailerons without blended rudder and elevator, the nose will drop by the time the roll is completed.  If you are rolling right, for example, the left (upgoing) wing's aileron will increase the local angle of attack due to increased effective camber as the trailing edge of the aileron moves downwards, which causes greater induced and form drag over portion of the wing with the aileron.  There is at the same time an opposite effect on the right (downgoing) wing (reduced AOA in the region of the upturned aileron).  The overall effect is yaw to the left, so to keep the nose "bullet straight" you would feed in a slight amount of right rudder....until, that is, the vertical axis of the airplane departed from the vertical enough that balanced flight forces between lift and gravity would reduce due to a reduced vertical component of (perpendicular) lift because of the bank angle, which would require compensation with aft stick to raise the elevator to increase perpendicular lift to keep the vertical component balanced with gravity, which requires left rudder to compensate against the rightwards lateral component of the aircraft's banked wings.  Uncorrected, the nose will drop, resulting in unintended descent.  The plane hasn't even gotten to 90 degrees of its 360 degree roll, and the pilot has been blending all the controls to keep the center of mass going straight forward along a level trajectory.  Keep rolling, adjusting for the varying yawing coupled forced with roll and pitch component through 270 more degrees, and if you've done everything right, you might be reasonably close to the original, pre-roll flight path.  The less symmetrical an aircraft is along its lateral and vertical axes, the greater the unintended coupling forces will be, and the greater coordinated compensation required to be input by the pilot during the conduct of the roll.

Purpose-built aerobatic aircraft, like the Pitts Special, Su-26, CAP 21, Christen Eagle, Xtra 300, etc... have relative aerodynamic symmetry (drag-wise) about their axes, so there is less unintended coupling between the controls than with other aircraft.  Even these aircraft will barrel slightly, but are relatively small, so the airshow crowd doesn't really pick up the slight gyrations of the aircraft's longitudinal axis during the roll (or other similar manoeuvres, for that matter).

The closest I've seen to a perfect roll other than an aerobatic aircraft is the 'Widow Maker', a.k.a. F-104 Starfighter...probably helped by the fact that at 90 degrees, the F-104's vertical fin is damn near as big as the two wings.  ;)

Anyway, just because something appears simple or "basic" externally, doesn't mean it isn't complicated inside the cockpit.

Regards
G2G
 
Good2Golf said:
The overall effect is yaw to the left, so to keep the nose "bullet straight" you would feed in a slight amount of left rudder....

Did you mean a bit of right rudder, in order to counter adverse yaw?


I did not mean to say that a perfect aileron roll (no rotation about the lateral and normal axis, and constant altitude) was easy, I know it is in fact impossible for it to be perfect.
A basic aileron roll that starts and ends at the same altitude is really not that hard. It can be done with or without using a knife edge component and while staying under positive G. Sure going negative helps keeping altitude thought! (he sure can't loose altitude here on this half roll: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzeQlba8-Fk) . Raise the nose high enough (quite a lot when flying a low roll rate airplane), feed the proper amount of rudder for full aileron deflection, keep the airplane under low positive load, and you have a gentle roll without loosing altitude.

Any pilot, civilian or military, doing rolls right above the deck, raise the nose high enough to not loose altitude. Why, when higher in the sky, do we always see military airplane rolling from a level attitude (therefore loosing altitude since they don't transition to negative load while passing 90 degrees)? Does it have a purpose or it's just that they don't care about this when high?
 
trampbike said:
I do not doubt that any military pilot can do it easily

Thank-you.

As I have not done this in thirty years of happy helicopter flying, however, you may seek to be elsewhere than in the cockpit should I get a chance to try it again.
 
trampbike said:
Did you mean a bit of right rudder, in order to counter adverse yaw?

...

Yes, bit of right rudder, but got ahead of myself, because by the time one does that to keep the nose from yawing left due to astmmetrical drag about the verical axis, the nose would be slicing due to gravity's affect at increasing bank angles, and you would then be into a lot more left to counter the slicing nose...
 
trampbike said:
An aileron roll is a pretty basic maneuver. A 360 degrees turn around the longitudinal axis of an airplane. When done properly, the entry and exit altitude should be the same (raise the nose high enough considering your roll rate and entry speed). I do not doubt that any military pilot can do it easily, yet on EVERY single video I saw of a military airplane performing an aileron roll (except for airshows), it exits at a lower altitude. Why is that?
In the civi world aerobatic training is focused on the airshow paradigm;  all of the manouvers are flown as though they were being done at low altitude.  Thus, one of the overriding concerns with all civi aerobatics is coming out at the same altitude you started at.
In the military aerobatics are taught as a lead in to other skills and to get student pilots used to being under g and upside down.  Different things are stressed in military aerobatics, (pitch rate for example).
One of the best examples of this is the loop.  When I learned aerobatics in the civilian world one of the key characteristics of a good loop was coming out at the same altitude as I started it at.  The airspeed at exit was never much of a concern, nor was the pitch rate.
In Moose Jaw the charateristics of a good loop are a constant pitch rate and exiting at the same speed you started at.  The altitude at which you exit is not much of a concern.
So, in answer to the question at hand.  Most military pilots will lose some altitude in a roll because that is the way they were taught to do it.  In the MFT there is no mention of checking the stick forward while inverted.  This is different than in the civi aerobatics manuals.

Trampbike, you wouldn't be related to Headly would you?
 
Thank you very much for the answer.

I'm not related to Andrew, but would love to fly with him soon.
 
I currently have my CPL S.M.E.L.S Group I and Class III and approximately 700hours. I'm currently working as an instructor and have recently applied to the Air Force as a pilot. Just wondering if anyone had two cents to throw in in regards to training (if I'm accepted that is) in regards to any bad habits I should watch for in myself. Or any attitudes I may potentially unwittingly bring to the table. I value the input and may you all have maintains check your tires for Grease after your landings.
 
ClassIII said:
Just wondering if anyone had two cents to throw in in regards to training (if I'm accepted that is) in regards to any bad habits I should watch for in myself.

Some discussion here.

Bad habit developed by civilian pilots 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103528.0
 
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