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Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working

McG

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tomahawk6 said:
Would converting RMC to the Sandhurst model work better for the CF ?
Good god no.
If you want a race car, you don’t try to get it by converting your Cessna. You start new.

If Canada wants an officers academy, then it should create something new at a location with appropriate training real estate.

If Canada does not need a military university, then it should close RMC. But remember that RMC does more than just OCdt under grad education.  There are a few post graduate technical programs that you will not find at a civilian university in Canada.
 

dapaterson

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MCG said:
Good god no.
If you want a race car, you don’t try to get it by converting your Cessna. You start new.

If Canada wants an officers academy, then it should create something new at a location with appropriate training real estate.

If Canada does not need a military university, then it should close RMC. But remember that RMC does more than just OCdt under grad education.  There are a few post graduate technical programs that you will not find at a civilian university in Canada.

But must the CAF own a university, or can it sponsor such programs at another school (McMaster or UQM or Dal or McGill or UBC or... plenty of excellent schools in Canada)
 

TangoTwoBravo

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Pre-flight said:
Mainly because the officer corps as a whole seems lacking from my POV. There seems to be a general lack of understanding of administrative procedures as well (which is understandable since SNCO's learn them over years of experience).

Everything from leadership, to administrative and disciplinary procedures, to parts of the CAFJODs and even a dumbed down version of the AOC could be bundled together in a 6 month or 12 month course that will better prepare officers for actual leadership and management. More-so than what a bachelor of arts can do, or what the leadership level system attempted but failed to do.

What is your branch and experience? Please do not introduce AOC into this discussion. AOC does great things across the river.
 

McG

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dapaterson said:
But must the CAF own a university, or can it sponsor such programs at another school (McMaster or UQM or Dal or McGill or UBC or... plenty of excellent schools in Canada)
What, like what someone else does with Cranfield? Stop dreaming up proven concepts.
 

tomahawk6

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I have been thinking that RMC might use the Sandhurst model in that cadets attend a 44 week course culminating with a commission.Cadets would arrive already with a 4 year college degree.
 

Blackadder1916

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dapaterson said:
But must the CAF own a university, or can it sponsor such programs at another school (McMaster or UQM or Dal or McGill or UBC or... plenty of excellent schools in Canada)

Yes, but where would they get this?



Royal_Military_College_of_Canada_ring.jpg
 

McG

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tomahawk6 said:
I have been thinking that RMC the CAF might use the Sandhurst model in that cadets attend a 44 week course culminating with a commission.Cadets would arrive already with a 4 year college degree.
If the CAF wants an academy as opposed to a university, then it should not try to twist RMC (on its tiny plot of land beside a base with a tiny training area) to that purpose.  If the CAF wants an academy, RMC is not the institution to do it.
 

daftandbarmy

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RMA Sandhurst: where leaders are not necessarily graduates. But if you want to get a degree, it looks like they can make that happen now after you pass, while you are serving:

Sandhurst chief says army needs character not university degrees

“There are a number of people with very good degrees out there – but what you are looking for is character. That is one thing the army develops very well. There is a feeling now that people are going to university because it is the ‘done’ thing.”

General Nanson revealed that from this September, school-leavers who have been accepted for officer training at Sandhurst will be able to register for a BSc in Leadership and Strategic Studies. Once they have completed the undergraduate degree,  developed in partnership with the University of Reading, they can go on to complete a Masters. 

Officers will build up credits during their 12-month officer training course at Sandhurst, which will make up a third of the degree. They can complete the remaining two thirds over a four year period while they are a serving officer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/08/14/army-chief-reveals-plans-entice-school-leavers-sandhurst-offering/
 

Journeyman

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According to CBC, it looks like any issues are well on their way to being solved.  :nod:
When it comes to the criticism of leadership, Sajjan said the government intends to develop an action plan.



Note that this is the same Minister we were told last spring would be moved out of Defence for lying mis-speaking about his 'architectural' prowess.  I suspect "action plan" (particularly regarding leadership) means 'waffle until the people forget the issue.'
 

Inspir

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dapaterson said:
But must the CAF own a university, or can it sponsor such programs at another school (McMaster or UQM or Dal or McGill or UBC or... plenty of excellent schools in Canada)

Are you thinking along the lines of how the Canadian Coast Guard College does it? With their Officers getting a degree from Cape Breton University.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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All this talk about Sandhurst, that's great but the CAF is a joint force and RMC is a joint College.

If the CAF wanted to create a Sandhurst, it would need to also create a Britannia Naval Academy and RAF Academy. Hmmmm, or it could create a Tri-Service Academy and base it out of Kingston.

What's good for the Army isn't necessarily good for the other services but that's tough to swallow in our JARMY military.
 

Journeyman

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The bottom line, as I see it:

:panic:.... for less than a week.  Society will then have wandered off, fixated on Hollywood's next crisis.  If there's any talk of significant change, the old guard alumni will circle the wagons to ensure nothing happens.

The "action plan" will drag on, producing mindless platitudes about how RMC is required to be different.  Having already acknowledged that there are leadership issues (and given our military's default setting of building more/bigger HQs), they'll likely throw in a couple of extraneous LCol/Cdr positions to be "leadership role-model" mannequins.

Nothing will change.  :boring:



Now, if I was cynical.....
Will anyone wonder (out loud): "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?  Oh, the raw materials."  No child left behind. Everyone gets a participation ribbon. Drool running from their mouths as they're glued to cell phones.

People are surprised that so many Cadets show up self-entitled, illiterate, socially helpless.... and RMC is supposed to magically fix that (without speaking harshly or releasing anyone)?  ::)

Just as well I'm not cynical.
 

Towards_the_gap

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My humble 2c......

I worked with a great deal of awesome officers during my short time in the CF, on par with any I worked with in the British Army (products of Sandhurst). And of course, some absolute duds.

Was there a noticeable difference between RMC grads and non-RMC grads? Professionally, I'd say no. Academically, I wouldn't be able to judge, although I picked up a fair few spelling mistakes proof-reading things for officers (of both tribes) which I delighted in pointing out! Is the ring-knocking worth the 40k per person per annum? I can't say I saw any evidence of it, or anything to justify the 'mystique' that RMC seems to have within the military.
 

daftandbarmy

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Towards_the_gap said:
My humble 2c......

I worked with a great deal of awesome officers during my short time in the CF, on par with any I worked with in the British Army (products of Sandhurst). And of course, some absolute duds.

Was there a noticeable difference between RMC grads and non-RMC grads? Professionally, I'd say no. Academically, I wouldn't be able to judge, although I picked up a fair few spelling mistakes proof-reading things for officers (of both tribes) which I delighted in pointing out! Is the ring-knocking worth the 40k per person per annum? I can't say I saw any evidence of it, or anything to justify the 'mystique' that RMC seems to have within the military.


Based on experience, Mil Coll was an excellent way to guarantee that you made it through CTC at Gagetown ;)

Also, ever notice the percentage of CF generals that are Mil Coll grads?
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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Journeyman, don't you know by now that the purpose of an action plan is to be able to produce a couple of 30 seconds ads with snazzy pictures that make you feel good and claim that everything good under the sun is the result of your action plan?

:sarcasm:

There's a question I have about the OAG report that I can't find the answer to: When it claims that graduating an officer from RMC costs $40K more than an average "small" university, do they consider the extra cost of taking DEOs from such a civilian university and qualifying them as commissioned officers in their calculation of comparable costs? I can't find the answer to that one. The report makes the claim that RMC is the most expansive way of generating commissioned officer, ou of the various streams, but it does not provide any background supporting the statement.

Now, back to sarcasm:

I think the OAG report reaches the wrong conclusion because it starts from an incorrect premise:

At section 6.32, "why this finding matters", the report states:

This finding matters because National Defence must ensure that its spending is cost-effective and focuses on National Defence’s priorities.

Now, when on earth has this been an objective of Canada's national defence  ;D.

If they had stated the "true" purpose from the start, their findings would have been that RMC is doing a marvellous job. That "true" purpose would of course be stated this way:

This finding matters because National Defence must ensure that its huge amount of spending is spread out across the country in the least effective way and focuses on the current party in power's priorities in maximizing the political benefits of such spending for the next election cycle.


You see: Stated that way, everything falls into place. /SARC OFF
 

McG

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Humphrey Bogart said:
All this talk about Sandhurst, that's great but the CAF is a joint force and RMC is a joint College.
I understand that Britannia Naval Academy provides an 8 week Army-like training crucible to forge RN officers.  If “JArmy” works there, why not here?

I would suggest Journeyman has hit on a key idea in that recruits are different today.  We may need a Royal Military Academy as a officer forge regardless of if they also pass through RMC or not.
 

Infanteer

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Humphrey Bogart said:
If the CAF wanted to create a Sandhurst, it would need to also create a Britannia Naval Academy and RAF Academy.

Easy, just add Mahan and Douhet to the curriculum!

MCG has a point, all this talk of "Sandhurst" as some sort of magical fix is missing the point by seeing problem A and promoting solution Z without considering B-Y.

Before considering any solution, the CAF and the DND must ask if (1) the military needs to be in the undergraduate business and (2) the military needs to take direct responsibility for four years of an officer cadet's life while (s)he completes an undergraduate program (as opposed to indirectly through an alternative pipeline such as the Reserves).

If the answer is yes, then solution "Sandhurst" isn't really in the mix.  If the answer is no, then the CAF needs to re-evaluate its commissioning pipelines and come up with solutions, to which a year-long "finishing school" like Sandhurst is one possible solution.  But until that is thought through, one can't argue that "Sandhurst" is automatically the viable fix for RMC's woes.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Journeyman said:
Now, if I was cynical.....
Will anyone wonder (out loud): "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?  Oh, the raw materials."  No child left behind. Everyone gets a participation ribbon. Drool running from their mouths as they're glued to cell phones.

People are surprised that so many Cadets show up self-entitled, illiterate, socially helpless.... and RMC is supposed to magically fix that (without speaking harshly or releasing anyone)?  ::)

Just as well I'm not cynical.

Pretty much nailed it JM
 
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