Ask The CSE Chief

[PuckChaser]

Kinda like the ACISS folks are going through now, albeit not quite as quietly! 

You rang?!?! We got pushed to the right again. At least your trade chief came on the boards with information and answered questions. We do everything in the Communications world but communicate with each other.

 

[NavyShooter]

I have it on good authority that there are folks listening to some of what's being said.

I spent 2 hours the other day in a meeting that was, I believe, productive. 

I think though that the one thing that's not really trickling up the chain is the looming time crisis.

By that I mean I'm concerned regarding the amount of time I will actually have to deliver training on the ship to WENG trainees, and for the journeymen to complete regular corrective and preventative maintenance.  Not to mention, the ship's priorities will trump individual training. 

Let me expound on that.

Take an average work week. Daily routine is from 0800-1545.  So, 7:45.  Subtract from that 60 minutes for lunch, and 20 minutes for Stand easy.  We're now down to 6:25.  Cleaning stations is an hour and a half, so now we're down to 4:55.

This is the maximum that's available for use on any given day.

A total of 24:35 per week. 

If we subtract from that even just 2 hours per week for PT, we're now at 22:35.

Every week is either a major or minor storing while alongside, so subtract another 2 hours.  20:35

Duty watches are roughly once every 3 weeks for MS&B, once qualified, so that would have us take one day per three week out, so 4:55/3 or about 1:40 per week gone.  Alas, the WENG will be doing their MCR Packages when they first arrive, and that's a 1:5 rotation, so every week for the first three months they're onboard, they'll be losing 4:55, not 1:40.  However, over the course of the 2-3 years they're onboard, the average will probably be closer to 2:00. 

Still, that puts them down to a maximum of 18:35 per week of available training time while alongside. 

There are a myriad of other "things" that go on onboard a ship that will steal a portion of that available time.

The other, REALLY CRITICAL part of this is that just tossing the trainee a tech manual and shoving him/her in a corner to go read it is not a practical means for instruction.  Part of having them on the ship is mentoring.  The LS/MS/PO2 journeymen are to teach them.  What does that mean?  It means that even if I only provide supervision for 50% of their instructional time (ie they're reading/studying half the time, and being mentored or taught the other 50%)  It means that, I lose one of my journeymen Technicians for just about 9 hours a week.

Right now, in my current manning situation, that means that per month, the MS&B of my section will be able to complete just 36 hours of corrective or preventative maintenance. 

Out of a theoretical work month of 4 weeks, with 155 working hours (20x7:45), I'm only able to get 36 hours of work out of my Journeyman.

If I have a 2nd Journeyman, whom I can employ full time, that's only an additional 75 hours per month, for a total of 111 person hours available.

THAT is what I see as being the most critical issue that has not been addressed....

NS

 

[Occam]

The large shift of the apprentice training from the school to the ship will be, in my opinion, foolish.  More and more PM routines will get shifted to the dockyard mateys simply because the ship's staff won't have time, and that means the ship's techs will lose valuable experience on the equipment.  There are many other things you haven't mentioned that are going to take chunks out of people's time, such as personal appointments, medical stuff, refresher training, and if you can even find time for it, courses for self-advancement at university and such.  Something will have to give.

 

[NavyShooter]

Occam, concur.

I was trying to keep the expounding to a minimum (didn't succeed there all that well did I?) but yeah, you can subtract time for CRR Lectures, Hazmat Team Training, refresher training, Personal admin, Annual leave, (an average of 2 days per month...) medical, linen exchange, ST(A) "visits", and so on...the list goes on.

I can see the yard getting busy also.

NS

 

[Pat in Halifax]

As an indicator for those unfamiliar, an informal study was done about 5 years ago onboard 3 HAL class ships. Though the PM/CM routines were pulled from the ER/ET side of the house, the numbers are likely similar for the CSE side. Based on REMAR, each person, from OS to EO/CERA would need to work a (roughly) 300 hour work week to get just the PM done! Even if you "pretend" that everyone spends 40 hours a week doing PM, we do not get 260 manhours of pure 'work' out of the FMFs in a given week unless you are a HR unit in a WP.

Now we have on board training in the mix and I am afraid the bean counters in Ottawa must have had the batteries die in their calculators.

 

[NavyShooter]

I wrote up our watch and station bill the other day.

The batteries MUST be dead. 

NS

 

[Donaill]

    The amount of time available for training, and trade related work is a major issue (imho).  I have been in for a bit now and this has been a concern of many even before the trade changes. I, as well as many other techs, keep hoping that things will change. It is very disheartening to see work being done by that yard, that our really well trained techs could be doing. we constantly hear that there is a retention issue. I know that one of the biggest issues for techs is the lack of real hands on trade time.

 

[Navalsnpr]

    The amount of time available for training, and trade related work is a major issue (imho).  I have been in for a bit now and this has been a concern of many even before the trade changes. I, as well as many other techs, keep hoping that things will change. It is very disheartening to see work being done by that yard, that our really well trained techs could be doing. we constantly hear that there is a retention issue. I know that one of the biggest issues for techs is the lack of real hands on trade time.

Your issues and the issues of others expressed on this forum regarding the upcoming trade changes have been brought forward during various meetings regarding the WEng Tech trade.

I'm sure there will be a few re-musters / releases during this trade re-alignment as there was during the Maritime Occupational Restructure Program (MORP) back in 1984.

 

[NavyHopeful]

My question for this forum is as follows:

I have recently applied under the NE Tech (S) and NW Tech trades.  I have recently discovered that it is likely that these trades will amalgamate into one title with 5 specialities.  I wanted to know if it is actually happening, and what might be in store for all us newbies who signed on to be Sonar techs or Weapons Techs, and if the actual changes to the trades are just in the management and administration aspect of them or if the trades themselves are in for an overhaul.

Any info that you may have, no matter how insignificant it seems, would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Rev

 

[NavyShooter]

Hullo Rev,

Well, the trade amalgamation means that all 5 trades will enter the CF as one common "entry" or "apprentice" level trade.  You'll be trained on a selection of equipment from each of the CSE trades. 

On completion of some training packages in the fleet, you'd be get an opportunity to ask for which specialty you'd want.  Bear in mind, the trade re-alignment involves shifting some of the NWT equipment to the other trades, so an NET(S) will end up working on some of the (formerly) NWT gear such as Torpedos.

Does that help a bit?

NS

 

[gcclarke]

My question for this forum is as follows:

I have recently applied under the NE Tech (S) and NW Tech trades.  I have recently discovered that it is likely that these trades will amalgamate into one title with 5 specialities.  I wanted to know if it is actually happening, and what might be in store for all us newbies who signed on to be Sonar techs or Weapons Techs, and if the actual changes to the trades are just in the management and administration aspect of them or if the trades themselves are in for an overhaul.

Any info that you may have, no matter how insignificant it seems, would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Rev

Yes it is happening. As of Sept, there will be no such thing as an NET or an NWT. Anyone who isn't already QL5 (qualification level) qualified by that point will become one of the "generic" techs, to be selected for further trades training and specialization down the line. Everyone else should already know what type they'll be once the change comes along.

There are some rather significant changes that'll happen to both the training, and what types of kit people will be managing. For example, the new Weapons Eng Tech (Sonar) will also be dealing with the Torpedos, and all aspects of the Towed Array Sonar and the Nixie (Acoustic / Magnetic Torpedo Countermeasures), whereas previously they focused on the electronics (dry end) didn't maintain the hydraulic handling devices. Most current NWTs will likely end up as either an Armament Technician or a Fire Control Technician, Armament guys will keep the main gun and the CIWS along with a few others, but all missiles will be the Fire Control Techs, along with the fire control radars.

As for what you can expect starting out, you'll initially get a much broader experience when you first do your trades training and then get to ship. You'll touch on aspects of all 5 flavours of tech, and when the time comes to pick which ones you might like to be, you can do so with a better understanding of what the job actually entails than you would at the recruiting centre. Conversely, while your experience will be broader, it will also by necessity be shallower. You won't gain as thorough of an understanding of any particular kit as I would currently expect any of our apprentices to have now.

As has been discussed above, there will likely be a fair amount of growing pains implementing this change. I'm not entirely convinced it's the right move, but at the very least I do think it'll help smooth out much of the imbalances between the 4 current trades, with regards to both manning levels, and other things such as ship / shore ratios.

 

[NavyHopeful]

Wow.  Thanks for the info folks.  I think that this would play perfectly for me (should I make it past the merit-listed phase of my application) because the more I got to looking into the trades for my interviews, I found that I actually found the entire CSE Department to interest me.  Granted, my third choice was to be a stoker, but in all honesty, it's the tech trades that really catch my eye.

I hope that this time next year I can be a part of CSE and not still waiting.  One can only hope, I guess.

Thanks again for the info!!!

Rev

 

[RickDevlieger]

For NavyHopefull, and anyone else who may be curious,

Below is the answer from the Occupation Manager for NE and NW TECHS which will soon be Weapons Engineering Techs. He has been very involved with the occupation restructuring since it started under auspices of MOSART in 2003 will continue to manage it through the changeover later this year.

Yes we are amalgamating NE and NW techs. The job remains the same although the training profile has changed. At the end of 4 years you will still be a technician working on some cool equipment. You will have the opportunity to work in all areas of the combat system for a few years before selecting a specialty. These areas will be Sonar,Communications,Radar, Fire Control and Missiles and Armament (naval guns)
After working in the different areas you will pick your top 3 choices. You should get one of those choices to work in for the next several years.
Continuous learning, travel to exciting places and making a difference are all benefits of being in the Navy.

 

[NavyHopeful]

Chief Tech, thanks so much for the info.  I called my recruiter today for an update on my file and he basically told me the same thing.  He said I had been selected for a Weapons Engineering Technichian position,  but that I hadn't made the merit list phase yet, and that I should actually be getting a call within the next few weeks.  I hope it's sooner rather than later.  I am super-stoked that everything I had to provide had no issues.  Now all I have to do is concentrate on getting my PT as best as I can, and I should be good to go when I get the call.

Thanks again for all of the info from everyone in this forum.  It's good to know that those who have questions can get them answered as quickly and as acurately (provided they look in the right places of course).

Cheers!!!

Rev

 

[NavyShooter]

Rev,

PT is a biggie, but don't forget the other basic tasks you'll need to know.

I almost flunked out of basic because I couldn't iron a shirt to save my life.

Good luck, and we'll see you in the fleet.

NS

 

[CDBoych]

I have a couple of questions that (being inland and without a lot of access to naval personnel to ask), I haven't found answers to yet!  I hope that this is an acceptable place to ask them.

I am an NCM-SEP for a WET (applied for NWT right in the middle of the trades changeover) position in the Okanagan (BC) and am in the home stretch of my civvy education.  I leave for BMQ on 9 July.

The question I can't seem to get answered is...  What happens after that?  The best answer I can get seems to be, "You'll be posted somewhere else for other training."  I've looked online, and I've asked around, but since SEP seems to kind of be a small and little known segment and I have dealt mostly with army environmental folks, I have had a hard time acquiring solid answers.

I know that I have to do naval environmental, but I don't know where, when, or for how long.  I have also been told I will have to do other training to fill in the gaps in my education, but again, what, where, when, and how long?  Obviously the when's aren't something I can find out here, but hopefully, since there seems to be a lot of knowledge about training and such here, some of my other questions might be answered?

Much appreciated!

 

[Occam]

Unless something changed drastically, all the training infrastructure for NWT/NET and WE Techs is still in the same place it always was - Halifax class training in Halifax, Iroquois class training in Esquimalt.  That's the "other training" you're referring to.  The naval environmental training will probably be given to you on the coast where you'll be doing your class of ship training, but that's somewhat less cast in stone.  As for length of training, I'll leave that to someone who has seen more info on the new trade structure than I have.

 

[Sub Standard]

From what I have gotten from the various briefings, you will most likely go to CFNES in Halifax to take any particular courses you SEP program didn't cover then you will take WEng Tech equipment training for the Halifax Class as they are the only class that will do the OJT packages.  After that you will get posted to you first ship in either Halifax or Esquimalt.  Some where in there you will also take your NETP. 

Hope this helps.

 

[GuitarDean]

Question for the Chief:

I'm a NCS Eng officer in training, in middle of NETPO at the moment. With FELEX going on and the restructuring of the NCM trades in the CSE department, I was wondering if and how the officer trade will be affected. I'd imagine quite minimally since the job of the department as a whole should remain the same; but then what do I know?

Also with the new equipment coming on the ships, is what I learn at CFNES going to be obselete as soon as I graduate? What changes are they making / have they made to the courses at CFNES in response to FELEX?

 

[Donaill]

For the Comms side nothing will change, not even with Felex.