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Army Is Looking to SMG's

NavyShooter

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The criteria I saw there:

9mm
Semi or Full Auto
Picatinny rail familiar to soldiers on their existing M4 Carbine

So.

The rest of the article is fluff-especially the .300 blackout, the 5.56 stuff, etc.  It's a 9mm gun that the army wants for this.

What 9mm carbines are out there, which offer Semi/Full auto, with Picatinny rails?

All kinds...ALL kinds of options.

MP5 is the most 'famous' but arguably one of the least likely I think.  It's heavy, it's an old design, and it's not a form-factor fit for the M-16/M-4 FOW.

I will suggest that it's more likely that the result will be something along the lines of the Angstad Arms carbines - based on the M-4/M-16 FOW.

Why 9mm?  Dunno.  That's what they've asked for though, so other caliber discussions are moot.  What should they get?  Who cares....in this case they have ASKED for 9mm.

*shrug*  I have been hankering for a decent 9mm rifle/carbine, but haven't wanted one badly enough to blow my visa bill away for one.

NS

 

Colin Parkinson

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I hope they remember that NATO 9mm ammo is loaded hot, more or less P+ and will hammer apart a gun not designed for it. Mind you, likley for CP teams, so they might get JHP ammo.
 

Good2Golf

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SeaKingTacco said:
I went to Royal Roads- you know, the drill college. I have more FN carrying time from that than I probably spent in a classroom...

:nod:

Nothing quite like us hauling a C1 around at the short trail, getting screamed at by Jon Vance.  #goodtimes


Back on-thread(-ish), the Sterling had a grouping wider than a sawed-off Remmy 870! ;D

Fully on-thread, go with the pro...the Uzi Pro.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Save everyone time, money, training and spares.  Short barreled AR platform in 9mm. We can build it in our Canadian plant. No licencing, no foreign contracts, no waiting. No huge startup costs.
 

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tomahawk6

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recceguy said:
Save everyone time, money, training and spares.  Short barreled AR platform in 9mm. We can build it in our Canadian plant. No licencing, no foreign contracts, no waiting. No huge startup costs.

sounds like a sound investment. ;)
 

medicineman

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I seem to recall there was a 9mm variant of the M4 made back in the 80's or 90's wasn't there?  Basically cut down barrel, same sort of receiver but rebored for 9mm - had a straight 30 rd mag.

MM
 

Jarnhamar

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I have a feeling this is one of those "look I'm doing something" things.

I thought the US moved away from the whole PDW fad.  Improvements  to 9mm ammo closed the gap with other pistol rounds but its still no 5.56 replacement. I can't conceive something this platform would do for their regular forces that a short 5.56 platform wouldn't do.

With a CSS style stock and  short barrel you can get an AR15 practically down the size of an mp5.
 

Good2Golf

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Jarnhamar said:
I have a feeling this is one of those "look I'm doing something" things.

I thought the US moved away from the whole PDW fad.  Improvements  to 9mm ammo closed the gap with other pistol rounds but its still no 5.56 replacement. I can't conceive something this platform would do for their regular forces that a short 5.56 platform wouldn't do.

With a CSS style stock and  short barrel you can get an AR15 practically down the size of an mp5.

Except that the Army seems to be of the opinion the carbines are only for high-speed special types...oh, and tankers, of course. Due to Close operating confines, CSS and folks like aircrew should also have carbines, notwithstanding some from those two groups who think they should have long barrels to reach out to 600m “if need be.” ::)

If the goal is to have a volume of subsonic lead coming from a modified dynamic iso shooting position, then things like the Uzi are most likely the way to go....or MAC-10?

G2G
 

Colin Parkinson

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Good2Golf said:
:nod:

Nothing quite like us hauling a C1 around at the short trail, getting screamed at by Jon Vance.  #goodtimes


Back on-thread(-ish), the Sterling had a grouping wider than a sawed-off Remmy 870! ;D

Fully on-thread, go with the pro...the Uzi Pro.

I found them to be quite accurate, with some proper training and practice. The big issue is the lag between squeezing the trigger and the bang as the bolt travels forward to strip off a round and ignite it as it is going fully into the chamber. This lag lets people with no training or understanding, express their full ability to get grip, flinch and trigger pull wrong.
 

daftandbarmy

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An MP5 is as close to a laser gun as I'll ever fire. That accurate, IMHO, at close range.

However, it weighs about 20lbs (OK, not really, but it's heavy).

Good luck to them. The confusing ammo mix in the platoon might not be an issue.
 

tomahawk6

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The sten gun or a modern version might be good for tankers and vehicle drivers.
 

CountDC

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oh goody, the fun SMG.  Special request on this - get one that can be fired from either shoulder. 

Is there really any value to an in close spray and pray? Personally if I had to pick between the SMG and C7 the 7 wins.  Longer range, better punch and I can still spray and pray if I want.  Give me a folding stock and not much difference in size.  Maybe memory fogging over time but I think the SMG may have weighed a bit more too.

Now the FN was a fun time.  With a cigarette pack you could turn your 1 into a 2 and throw off the enemy force.  Not really recommended on the range with live ammo at the standing position.   
 

Colin Parkinson

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The C7 needs the stock for the buffer and spring, there are SMG versions of the AR. Problem is that blowback systems are limited in which calibre you can use. .40cal is about the safe max, .357 Sig generally is very hard on the guns. If you want effectiveness in a pistol calibre with some body armour penetration, go with 7.62x25 with a modern bullet. More terminal effect than 5.7 from my reading.
 

Dissident

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The reasonable option would have been a 10"-11" 5.56 carbine. I suspect that the pointy heads would loath to introduce something like this, as it would end up in "the wrong hands", ie the army at large. Making it 9mm would prevent it from making it's way to the general infantry. I'm out now, but I remember leadership making waves about us using the C8, even though it was part of our establishment.
 

medicineman

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CountDC said:
Now the FN was a fun time.  With a cigarette pack you could turn your 1 into a 2 and throw off the enemy force.  Not really recommended on the range with live ammo at the standing position. 

My Dad tells me he saw someone warp a barrel doing that on the range...there are/were versions of the FAL (read C1/L1) that were marketed as auto capable - the para versions were also shorter barreled and had folding stocks.  Still, I'd hate to try firing something like that at cyclic rate from the standing unsupported with much hope of hitting anything after the first shot.

I didn't mind the old C1 "Go Fast Gun", but I'm right handed.  In close quarters, I found the suicide mag made handling easier - making it a 15 rd instead of 10 I think would be smarter and take up negligibly more room.  The thing I really hated about that gun was it used to seek out and snag any cam net within 25 sq m - a modern version should have a different cocking handle...oh yeah, the sling was too long for doing litter drills - we used to routinely hit people in the head with them if we didn't switch sides in the low slung position.

MM
 

Blackadder1916

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medicineman said:
I didn't mind the old C1 "Go Fast Gun", but I'm right handed.  In close quarters, I found the suicide mag made handling easier - making it a 15 rd instead of 10 I think would be smarter and take up negligibly more room.  The thing I really hated about that gun was it used to seek out and snag any cam net within 25 sq m - a modern version should have a different cocking handle...oh yeah, the sling was too long for doing litter drills - we used to routinely hit people in the head with them if we didn't switch sides in the low slung position.

Yeah, the age old complaint that it was so small that it was difficult to keep from swinging around, the obvious solution (well, the one I heard many times from junior ranks) was to issue pistols to all medics.  One proposed solution (we had a guy who used to do a little canvas sewing who did one up) was to have a "holster" for the SMG.  Actually, it was more a scabbard on the belt that kept the weapon close to the body and stopped it from swinging around. A good idea but never authorized nor did it catch on enough for individuals to pay for their own webbing modifications.
 

daftandbarmy

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The MP7 is a good option. The ammo is designed to defeat body armour:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7
 

medicineman

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Blackadder1916 said:
Yeah, the age old complaint that it was so small that it was difficult to keep from swinging around, the obvious solution (well, the one I heard many times from junior ranks) was to issue pistols to all medics.  One proposed solution (we had a guy who used to do a little canvas sewing who did one up) was to have a "holster" for the SMG.  Actually, it was more a scabbard on the belt that kept the weapon close to the body and stopped it from swinging around. A good idea but never authorized nor did it catch on enough for individuals to pay for their own webbing modifications.
I’ve seen holsters/scabbards that were made much like you described - but only really worked with the suicide mags


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