Army Expansion Versus The "Exodus of Experience" - Do We Have A Problem?

[Kirkhill]

Wookilar and Paracowboy:

Are there many currently serving that would prefer to stay in and NOT get promoted so that they can continue doing what they joined for?  Assuming the promotion = pay rise what other incentives would folks like yourself look for to encourage you to stay in?  More courses for skills not tied to rank?  More opportunities to deploy?  Work elsewhere?  Serve with other units? Stay put?

 

[Ammogod]

Go out to any ammo section you will see all ranks working. At the Sgt level they say that 70% of the job is admin, at the WO rank 80% admin and the MWO rank 90 %. that leave 30% to 10% time working on ammo,

There is day's I have seen all the Sr NCO's working our butts off, humping ammo, doing salvage

Then there are other days when the paper work ties me to my desk.

 

[paracowboy]

Are there many currently serving that would prefer to stay in and NOT get promoted so that they can continue doing what they joined for? 

there are some, but there, too, we have to remember that the majority of our senior NCOs have been doing this for their 20 years, and are done. Simply too tired, too old, too broken, and too bitter from the '90s to continue.They've done their time, made their sacrifices, and want to enjoy the liberties they've given up so much for. And, maybe get to know their children.

Assuming the promotion = pay rise what other incentives would folks like yourself look for to encourage you to stay in?  More courses for skills not tied to rank?  More opportunities to deploy?  Work elsewhere?  Serve with other units? Stay put?

This can help, but it would vary from individual to individual. Some guys want more deployments (okay, MOST do). Some want to take a last kick at the cat and try CSOR, or might want to change units in order to be closer to their desired retirement area.

Bottom line, though, is they're finished. They have nothing left to give, in many cases. And I can't fault them for that. They've given so much, for so long, they're finished. Talking to them, there really isn't much of anything that can be offered that will keep them in. When they start looking forward to retirement like it's a release from prison, thre isn't too much that can change their mind. Our senior NCOs and many of our officers have reached their peak, having lead soldiers in A-stan, and have no incentive to remain.

Frankly, I think we're screwed.

We're trying to make up for it by promoting people to fill their spots. When most of your MCpls have 2 courses, and one Exercise under their belt, in 3 years TI, you don't have MCpls. A Pte with a leaf is still a Pte when it comes to job knowledge. You can give a Cpl a leaf, and put him on his Small Arms, but now you have a Cpl with a Sgt epaulet on. He still doesn't have the experience, or job knowledge.

And we're going to expand the Army? Yeah.

 

[scoutfinch]

These might be simplistic questions, but here goes nothing:

(1)  Where is the CF supposed to find the experienced staff to train 23,000 new recruits, while maintaining operational commitments? 

(2)  What needs to be done to retain the experienced NCOs that we have?

 

[paracowboy]

These might be simplistic questions, but here goes nothing:

(1)  Where is the CF supposed to find the experienced staff to train 23,000 new recruits, while maintaining operational commitments? 

exactly

(2)  What needs to be done to retain the experienced NCOs that we have?

nothing can be. We cowboy up, and soldier on. They've done their bit. Those that want to stay, will. Those that don't, have earned their retirement.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

(2)  What needs to be done to retain the experienced NCOs that we have?

I agree with Paracowboy....nothing really. When I decided it was time I was barely 28 with 10+ years in and not even double pay, jammy posting, etc. would have helped.

Done is done....and now we are talking people with 20+ years in and families.....this is going to be a huge problem.

Paracowboy,
The one saving grace about the faster promotions now is at least most have done some kind of tour, as opposed to my day when the promotions went to the "garrison leaders" :   *coughpoliticscough*

 

[Old Sweat]

For whatever it is worth, many years ago I went through several years of force reductions followed by a recruiting freeze for about four years, which in turn led to an expansion in the artillery of about forty percent. None of it was much fun, but the expansion was at least heading in the right direction.

A couple of things stuck in my mind. Of these, the first and most glaringly obvious is that an expansion takes time. It took more than a decade to screw things up and almost as much time to fix it. Second, and far more important, is that how the troops rose to the challenge. Some of the supposedly switched off 5A Bombardiers, when faced with a mass of young, inexperienced soldiers, became kick butt NCOs and excellent numbers one and the like. Many became sergeants and a few reached warrant rank.

If the CF attempts to grow by 1000 a year, that will still not be much more than a platoon per infantry battalion, if the RCIC gets a fair slice. That is nothing more than an estimate, but is a starting point for discussion.

Bottom line - it will be a long, frustrating mess, even more so because of the operational tempo you are facing which we did not have to worry about, but in the end it will be worth it.

 

[paracowboy]

we did it before. Thousands of recruits kicked the Boer's butts, the Kaiser's butt, and that Austrian guy - What'shisname. They went from civvie to Sarn't-Major in a few years, and did a damn fine job.

Despite my pessimistic-sounding posts, I have Faith. (It's all I got.)

 

[Wookilar]

I switched so I would not become one of the bitter ones looking to get out. If I stayed as a mech, I would be bitter and twisted after 20 years of seeing the exact same equipment, with the exact same problems, operated by newer/younger/higher ranking people. I still want to serve, but I know I could not keep doing what I have been. Too many broken bones, concussions and scars.
Some would like to stay as Cpl's and stay "on the floor." But Paracowboy is exactly right in that it would be up to the individual. You could never design a retention program that would satisfy all that would be requested.

Much of the 90's were not nice to the CF, especially the combat arms, and at times, in particular, the infantry. The loss of much of the integral support (mortars, pioneers, soon the integral CSS) that the infantry BN's had has done a lot of damage to self image and job satisfaction. (Many used to look forward to going over to Cmbt Sup for a while and really get to blow stuff up).

Some of the best WO's I ever worked have just had enough. The same can be said for a few Capt's that I have a lot of time for. For one reason or another, they will never get Maj and they are tired of doing a continual rotation of staff jobs. It is good to see some of the smiling faces on tv from A'stan and knowing that we have some excellent people (in my opinion) in the right place (position wise, not tour wise). The problem is the shortage of those "right places." The new units will be a light at the end of the tunnel for a few, but the retirement of so many senior people (in a lot of trades, NCM and Commissioned) in a relatively short time frame will result in more and more "quick" promotions.

This will have an effect on us for a long time. And I do not see any viable solutions on the horizon, other than time and tightening up the standards on leadership courses. As before, we will come out more robust, larger than we have been in a long time and, hopefully, more capable. It will take time and for those of us still in to keep caring.

 

[McG]

(1)  Where is the CF supposed to find the experienced staff to train 23,000 new recruits, while maintaining operational commitments? 

It will come from the second line of operations (ie: the even numbered TFs: TF 4-06, TF 2-07, TF 4-07, etc).

 

[a23trucker]

I don't know if this has been asked before but has anyone considered hiring retired members to teach the on CF crse's?  God knows they have the experience. Many of them are in pos'n of instructors/supervisors/managers in Civy life. (I know that back in the '80s I was taught by a newly retired Reg F MWO while he carried on his civilian career as a real estate agent.)
This may allow some of those retired mbrs the taste again that they have been missing w/o a commitment that would screw up their new careers. At the same time it may be just enough to get us thru these lean days.
The two week Res F crses may be a place to start since you might be able to entice someone to use their vacation. I believe the Navy has done this for years.


But then again the bean counters and lawyers will get involved with 500 reasons why it can't be done.....

(I'm glad this thread is echoing a lot of the observations of the damage that FRP has had over the years....well done)

My 2 cents anyways.

Cheers
AM

 

[ZipperHead]

There is a program called TCEP (Training Capacity Enhancement Project.... someone correct me if I botched this). Anyway, a company called Valcom won the contract to teach D&M (the B vehicles, such as LSVW, G-Wagon, etc) here in Gagetown. The sound you currently hear is a whole dumptruck load of 30 day releases going in (of pers with 20+ years in). There are apparently other contracts in the bid process for other things (and other ones have been cancelled apparently) at the moment, so watch and shoot.

This is something to watch, as it has the chance to either solve the problem Mark C brought up (more Army guys to send to the field/overseas because civvies are teaching some of the courses), or make it worse (said "civvies" will mostly be guys who are currently in CADPAT getting out ASAP to fill these jobs, so the net effect is less soldiers to go to the field/overseas). Only time will tell if this will work out, but all those serving will get to feel the short term pain (to make up for the shortfall).

It's something for guys to look forward to (i.e. all of us Combat Arms types who get out with 20+years in and not a lot of marketable skills to show for it). Beats being a Wal-Mart greeter, I guess.

Al

P.S. For guys interested (not just in Gagetown), here's the website to submit your resumes: http://www.valcom.ca/Ottawa/careers/current_positions/default.htm
You can see by some of the job descriptions, there is NO WAY that an average civvy can qualify (i.e. LAV 25mm Gnry instructor).

 

[TCBF]

"P.S. For guys interested (not just in Gagetown), here's the website to submit your resumes: http://www.valcom.ca/Ottawa/careers/current_positions/default.htm
You can see by some of the job descriptions, there is NO WAY that an average civvy can qualify (i.e. LAV 25mm Gnry instructor)."

- They always use the "We will hire ex-military." to get the contract, then replace them with useless trash who work for one third as much.  Tell me THAT didn't happen ib Bosnia and elsewhere  Now, since a contractor can teach you and I all about 25mm Gunnery, it also means they can teach THEMSELVES 25mm Gunnery, right?  Oh, not right away, it will start as "standardization" then worm it's way up.  Then you get Raschid the refugee from the Imbiss stand in Bremerhafen as your 25mm Gunnery instructor because his brother Kemal and his mafia just bought the contractor.  Hope you like Kebab breath in the turret.

 

[a23trucker]

I was thinking more along the lines of the CF contracting the ex members directly. Let the schools manage them.

AM

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I was thinking more along the lines of the CF contracting the ex members directly. Let the schools manage them.

AM

They have neither the time, infrastructure, or likely the business mandate to do so.

 

[Good2Golf]

Exchange the terminology to the Navy and you have the same problem in Maritime Command. It is likely the same in the Air Force.

  YUP.

Mark, I couldn't agree with your statements in general more (and FSTO yours in particular)...pensionable in my 22nd year of service and am frustrated with, in my opinion, the Air Force's poor proponency for my community and abysmal understanding of demographics.  The only thing keeping me in was a very intersting opportunity in AFG and the hope that I'll return to AFG in a flying role in support of my user community.  I'll see how that goes, because the AF doesn't seem to big on having the Griffon go anywhere.  Back to a look at the general case though...expansion is a different thing that doesn't come along often, but even keeping things on a relatively even (numerically) keel seems to challenge them.  The FRP certainly took a chunk out of the CF's demographics, with a commensurate self-consumption of folks left over in the CF to accomplish the remaining tasks with even greater personal strain.  Then when that demographical grouping got fatigued/pissed off/exasperated and left we found ourselves really seeing the lack of experience show while the OPTEMPO only increased...leading to a point today where the CF is in a very tenuous state, the Army particularly so because of the degree to which deployed operations has been land-centric.  I think many people, the politicians especially, don't appreciate that expansion is really a 10-15 year effort, not a "[next year] Hey, what did you do with the expansion $$$ we gave you last year?"  :

Cheers,
Duey

 

[The Six]

The problem begins before one reaches Lt Col.  I've recently had the advantage of seeing the Army I came to love through the eyes of a young recruit, who has told me of the alarming numbers of his friends who either have VR'd or will not be re-signing.  I'm talking about the sharp end in this.

I heard recently about a Coy OC who stripped his men of fur sleeping robes so he could have them in his tent during arctic maneuvers.

I've heard of young men who did re-sign (to get a tour) only to have the tour cancelled under them.

When men have to buy their own boots and kit in order to get the job done, pay their own way to go overseas, and have sub-units in a constant state of flux --breaking up any sense of unit cohesion --  we'd better worry about who will be left to BECOME the next generation of leaders. 

We are operating in a time of economic boom -- great opportunities for young people.  They must see meaning, and hope for a decent career, if they are to remain in the military.  Otherwise, the Liberals / NDP and their budget cuts will have won.

 

[mdh]

The only thing keeping me in was a very intersting opportunity in AFG and the hope that I'll return to AFG in a flying role in support of my user community.  I'll see how that goes, because the AF doesn't seem to big on having the Griffon go anywhere.

Duey

Has the pilot shortage been stemmed by the current recruiting campaign or are there still a lot of pilots leaving? And if you don't mind me asking where do they go in civvy life? I can imagine the multi-engine guys are good to go for airlines but choppers aren't the easiet fit for Air Canada, no?

cheers,
mdh

 

[ZipperHead]

Tom, I sense a certain amount of bitterness: tell us how you REALLY feel.

If you read the job description and requirements, they pretty much spell it out that you have to have been military (and recently, at that). Are they going to be able to teach themselves the skills? Sure, after a period. Is there room to abuse the system to bring in unqualified pers? Of course. But the contracts aren't for say, 14 years (the period from 2nd BE to end of IE), so the latitude to get rid of shitpumps is greater now that they are in civvies vs CADPAT, as the company is worried about the bottom line (profits) not Human Rights, Ombudsman complaints, etc. My understanding as well is the the units have a right to refuse individuals (pers that are horrible instructors, or former problem children), and School Standards pers will still monitor trg, so it's not neccesarily the doom and gloom you portray.

I am NOT a cheerleader for this program (as I can see many of the immediate problems, and foresee some future ones - I witnessed in Bosnia part of the problems with ATCO Frontec when the civilianization began), but it is a reality. I will post the link for another company involved in the bidding process (Calian) when I get a chance, in the interest of fairplay. Here it is: http://bts.calian.com/career_jobs/

Al

 

[TCBF]

The trouble with going to a Civ Contractor, is:

1.  You are stuck with them.  One phone call to the local MP's office, and the 'plan' to go back to mil instructors is dead in the water. 

2.  You can never regain those Mil PYs.  Easy to cut - hard to create.

Anybody who tells you "We can always go back to the old way if this doesn't work out" would pimp his or her own grandmothers.

Tom