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Army commander vows to issue special order to weed out extremists in the ranks

Eye In The Sky said:
Without looking at anything...wouldn't those be more along the line of AI/SI/UDI vice AR? 

A CO's investigation (informal mechanism),SI or even BOI may be warranted if it was super serious and there was an indication of something more than individual malfeasance at play (see also Canadian Rangers / Corey Hurren / Erik Myggland). In terms of individual malfeasance generally units do fairly poor on any sort of in-depth analysis of admin measures for infractions (at least in my experience). While there may be a deliberate conversation on what level of RM it is often not guided by actual analysis just a report of the events and some experience around the table.  Which is fine IMHO for 99% of cases.

A UDI if it was a NDA vice civilian issue/charge would play into an AR or other administrative measures in the analysis, but is done separately and not at all (in general) if civilian charges are already at play.
 
PuckChaser said:
EITS, you were in the Army before if I remember correctly. You're telling me there isn't a marked difference about how a Pte in 3RCR would be disciplined for being late to a parade compared to an Aviator in Greenwood?

I was.

I'd say "yes" to your question, but the difference is the application of powers of punishment, not the orders/directives written that give more harsh (or lenient) powers to a Delegated O serving in one command or the other; important difference (to me?).

TL;DR summary;  the CAF is required to be 'fair' in imposing judgements.

This would be specific direction for CAF members posted to C Army, and that strikes me as (potentially) unfair.  Related to this (IMO)...a few excerpts from A-LG-007-000/AF-010 (CF Administrative Law Manual), Chap 2 Administrative Law in the CF, Section 3 - General Principles of Procedural Fairness:

26. Even though procedural fairness is “flexible and variable,” a court that is reviewing an administrative decision must assess the entire context of “the particular statute and the rights affected.” In order to determine the specific content of procedural fairness, a court will examine several factors, such as the:
a. nature of the decision being made and process followed in making it;
b. nature of the statutory scheme and the terms of the statute pursuant to which the body operates;
c. importance of the decision to the individual or individuals affected;
d. legitimate expectations of the person challenging the decision; and
e. choice of procedures made by the agency itself

Section 4 - Procedural Fairness in the CF

28. The requirement for procedural fairness in CF administrative decision-making has been established in several court cases at the FCC level. The majority of these judicial review applications have pertained to cases where members have been compulsorily released from the CF. The decisions of the courts have confirmed the overall duty of fairness owed to CF members and provided guidance as to the content of procedural fairness in each case.

30. It is trite to suggest that CF leaders and supervisors who make administrative decisions should do so fairly. That said, the duty to act fairly will vary depending upon the circumstances. An administrative order to impose one day’s forfeiture of pay for every day a member is guilty of being absent without leave engenders no duty of fairness because the law specifies the result: no discretion is involved  In contrast, most discretionary decisions that adversely affect a member, such as whether to revert a non-commissioned member who has been convicted by a civil authority, will engage a duty to act fairly.

CHAPTER 14 - ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION - SECTION 1 INTRODUCTION

1. Supervisors at all levels are generally responsible for promotion of the “welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all subordinates.”  Accordingly, supervisors possess a broad range of administrative authority and a variety of administrative procedures that they can use to correct the inadequate performance or misconduct of CF members. Except for compulsory release, administrative actions are intended to provide an opportunity for a CF member to correct or overcome a personal performance or conduct deficiency and then continue with their military career in a positive and productive manner. Administrative actions are normally progressive; starting with the least severe administrative sanction and progressing onward to more severe sanctions only if the performance or conduct does not improve. The chain of command always has the option of initiating administrative action starting with more severe sanctions when appropriate, taking into consideration the nature and seriousness of the member’s deficiency or misconduct as well as the concept of procedural fairness that underlies all administrative action.

2. The application of the principles of procedural fairness will vary depending on the type of administrative sanction utilized. In general, as the potential consequences of an administrative action become more severe, the member’s entitlement to procedural fairness increases. Within the CF, the highest level of procedural fairness that is most often applied requires the member to receive:
a. notice that the decision is being considered;
b. disclosure of all documents and information that will be considered by the decision-maker when making the decision;
c. the opportunity to make representations; and
d. a fair and unbiased decision by the decision-maker, accompanied with reasons.

So again to my example; Sgt Bloggins (Army) and Sgt Blogins (Air Force) do the same act, and Bloggins is treated more harshly because of a C Army "directive";  does that seem "fair" IAW the CF Admin Law Manual excerpts? 

I'm far from a legal SME, but based on my time in, experiences and interpretation...I'm of the opinion that a 'army specific' order creates the potential for a disparity of treatment or the appearance of a disparity of treatment. 

So...should the order, if indeed required, not be issued by CDS, CMP or some other senior CAF authority so it applies to all CAF members? 
 
MJP said:
A CO's investigation (informal mechanism),SI or even BOI may be warranted if it was super serious and there was an indication of something more than individual malfeasance at play (see also Canadian Rangers / Corey Hurren / Erik Myggland). In terms of individual malfeasance generally units do fairly poor on any sort of in-depth analysis of admin measures for infractions (at least in my experience). While there may be a deliberate conversation on what level of RM it is often not guided by actual analysis just a report of the events and some experience around the table.  Which is fine IMHO for 99% of cases.

A UDI if it was a NDA vice civilian issue/charge would play into an AR or other administrative measures in the analysis, but is done separately and not at all (in general) if civilian charges are already at play.

In the Admin/AR SME world, are unit-level investigations considered ARs?  My experience is an AR is considered to be an "above/outside the unit" level process...I think I was trying to make that distinction with Ballz with a statement/question combination...
 
Eye In The Sky said:
In the Admin/AR SME world, are unit-level investigations considered ARs?  My experience is an AR is considered to be an "above/outside the unit" level process...I think I was trying to make that distinction with Ballz with a statement/question combination...

Not at all, ARs are above the unit level.  Units may use the AR nomenclature but it is not an AR.
 
Check, so "AR" is used in the smoke-pit for what are really AI/SI/UDIs, it is an 'accepted' misnomer...one of many in the CAF.  :D
 
Forgot another part from the CF Admin Law Manual:

CHAPTER 14 - ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION - SECTION 1

4. Career Management  Procedural fairness has a limited application in respect of career management decisions because the outcomes of such decisions are not considered to be sanctions or penalties and such decisions are not being made as a result of any misconduct or inadequate performance on the part of the member. The vast majority of these types of decisions are made routinely and are accepted by the affected members, notwithstanding that the individual members may not have been consulted or informed prior to the decision being made. Those few members who disagree with a career management decision are entitled to apply for redress through the CF grievance process.  [included only to sp "contrast" to next para]

6. Administrative Sanction In contrast to career management, procedural fairness plays a significant role when serious administrative sanctions are being taken against a CF member. Such sanctions can impair a member’s career progression or, ultimately, lead to the termination of the member’s military service career by way of compulsory release. Accordingly, as the administrative sanctions become progressively more severe, procedural fairness requirements are enhanced for the benefit and protection of the member.
 
Colin P said:
and antifa, Communists, Warrior society?

Apparently this is not a problem, and this is the one of the issues I have ... why is only "right wing" extremism being singled out and why is "left wing" extremism not a problem?

This is not just a CAF thing. In the US, there are riots and burning of building happened in several cities at the behest of Antifa and other left-wing extremists. A group of them even occupied a part of downtown Seattle and harassed residents. Yet law enforcement is telling us these are not threats and only the bogeyman of "right wing extremists" is what warrants attention and concern. I say bogeyman because I am not convinced that "right wing extremists" actually exist in any significant numbers given their lack of activity compared to the left-wing groups.
 
ModlrMike said:
Here's another debate question:

Are we seeing more because there is more, or are we just better at recognizing it?

Or I would offer a third alternative ... are we seeing more because the range of acceptable political opinion has shifted and the definition of what constitutes "right wing extremism" has also shifted, therefore capturing many groups and views that were not deemed dangerous or criminal as recently as a year or two ago?
 
LittleBlackDevil said:
Apparently this is not a problem, and this is the one of the issues I have ... why is only "right wing" extremism being singled out and why is "left wing" extremism not a problem?

This is not just a CAF thing. In the US, there are riots and burning of building happened in several cities at the behest of Antifa and other left-wing extremists. A group of them even occupied a part of downtown Seattle and harassed residents. Yet law enforcement is telling us these are not threats and only the bogeyman of "right wing extremists" is what warrants attention and concern. I say bogeyman because I am not convinced that "right wing extremists" actually exist in any significant numbers given their lack of activity compared to the left-wing groups.

Perhaps right-wing extremists are more likely to conduct lone wolf style attacks (shootings), whereas the left wing extremists operate in mobs and mostly smash/burn things?

It may be easier to attribute the motivations of individual acts, and harder to attribute the motivations of large groups (especially if they operate among legitimate protesters)

The left also seems to control the narrative, and from a military standpoint, there probably are more right-wing extremists than antifa types...

:2c:
 
LittleBlackDevil said:
Apparently this is not a problem, and this is the one of the issues I have ... why is only "right wing" extremism being singled out and why is "left wing" extremism not a problem?

Look to Ottawa and our 'political leadership' for the answer to that one... :nod:
 
LittleBlackDevil said:
Apparently this is not a problem, and this is the one of the issues I have ... why is only "right wing" extremism being singled out and why is "left wing" extremism not a problem?

Leftwing extremism hasn't even been defined in Canada yet. America is no longer a marker on which to judge other countries' position on the political spectrum. They've strayed so far right they're being widely accused by many now as becoming a fascist regime. Normal is Canada and the other world countries that lead in social progress that affords their people a high quality of life.
 
Good points, reveng.

reveng said:
Perhaps right-wing extremists are more likely to conduct lone wolf style attacks (shootings), whereas the left wing extremists operate in mobs and mostly smash/burn things?

One would think this from the way that the media portrays things, but aside from the very highly popularized Anders Brevik case, I can't think of any others that truly fit the "right wing extremist" narrative.

Alexandre Bissonnette has been portrayed as "far-right extremist" because he targeted Muslims, however police said they found no content created by the killer that “could link him to the white supremacist or the neo-Nazi ideology.” Bissonet did lots of google searches of Donald Trump and the Ecole Polytechnique massacre but do google searches = adherence to any ideology? From his behaviour it sounds like mental health and prescription of the wrong medications played a larger role than any political beliefs. The fact that I did some google searches on Bissonet and Brevik this morning mean I'm a right-wing extremist? I sure hope not!

If you look at the Wikipedia page for "massacres in Canada", aside from Bissonette, you've got Minassian in the Toronto Van Attack ("incel" not right-wing politics), and then the rest are biker gang shootings, an estranged husband shooting up the wedding party of his wife's second marriage. NB Minassian washed out of Canadian Army training after 16 days.

That Wikipedia page does not include the 2014 shootings at Parliament Hill which certainly wasn't "right wing extremism" it was Islamic extremism but that is not considered a matter of concern for the CDS (not that it should be -- I think guys like that would never make it through training, like Minassian, plus I also think these cases have other underlying issues that should be addressed but not necessitating a purge of those with unpopular political or religious views).

reveng said:
It may be easier to attribute the motivations of individual acts, and harder to attribute the motivations of large groups (especially if they operate among legitimate protesters)

This is no doubt true. Very good point.

reveng said:
The left also seems to control the narrative, and from a military standpoint, there probably are more right-wing extremists than antifa types...

I think this is absolutely the case, and this is really the crux of the issue. The media, and therefore the narrative, is almost completely controlled by (at its most moderate) left-of-centre. Therefore these people downplay or even approve of the likes of antifa, whereas if news articles on Axenandre Bissonette are anything to go by, are so anti-right that they view even very moderate guys like Ben Shapiro as "extremists" (watching videos of Shapiro was one of the items cited to say that Bissonette was a right-wing extremist).
 
It's funny that folks are eager to put "mainstream media" as "left of centre."  Perhaps the problem is where folks are choosing to put centre of mass.

We do not have a "far left extremism" problem in the CAF, and I've yet to see a case where "growth of antifa ideology/communist viewpoints/etc/etc threatens the good order and discipline of the CAF."  Those of you twisting your underwear in a knot here are just creating a red herring. 

However, we do have specific cases of members identifying with nativist/supremist ideologies.  And there are enough serious case studies in the ranks of our allies to cause concern.  The recent incidents and trends in the U.S. and German Armed Forces give us good understanding as to where this can lead if left unchecked by leadership.
 
Infanteer said:
We do not have a known/exposed "far left extremism" problem in the CAF

Like COVID 19, you don't know until you know.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

With the 'control of the message' stuff lately from...CBC, others...I'm not sure if a case was discovered, it would be widely publicized anyways. 
 
A few thoughts...

First- on the whole right/left thing; I think the reason - in this context - that we hear about right wing extremism more than left is simply because dds are we aren't going to find (m)any of the latter serving in the military. Not saying it'll never happen, but those particular extremist views are unlikely to be aligned with military service in Canada. On the flip side, those with right wing extremists views do seem in some cases to serve int he military- either as a related part of their personal values, or in some cases specifically to acquire skills/knowledge. Military service has been explicitly advocated in right wing circles as a way to prepare for whatever violent conflict it is they imagine is coming. It's not hard to quickly come up with a list of names of former (or even current) CAF members who have been publicly outed as having such views, either in the course of criminal investigations (Matthews, Hurren), or through being 'outed' or doxxed by thsoe who do such things (the MARLANT 'Proud Boys', the other sailor I believe out west, etc). In the absence of real data, the numerous anecdotes at least cause us to cast our eye in a certain direction.

Regarding releasing these individuals from CAF, procedural fairness, due process, etc... There's a different standard applied to terminating employment than there is to being charged with an offense.  It's very much in CAF's (and arguably Canada's) interest to be able to efficiently release people from military service who don't serve the unique needs thereof, or who are otherwise an undue liability or administrative burden. The courts have tested the administrative release process, and it holds up. Given the real security concerns attendant to people who have extremist political views of any bent, I think it's necessary and appropriate that the upper chain of command support and champion efforts to clear the ranks of those with an ethos contradictory to what the military requires. Bear in mind that any further obstacle to releasing these members who apply equally to those we might categorize as '****birds', the guys who all have known and worked with who just shouldn't be in but have somehow not quite yet managed to get kicked out. These are still individuals that take up positions, that create administrative burdens, and that harm the efficiency and effectiveness of the total force. Some greater degree of protection of extremists from the consequences of their choices would also extend protections to all of these other individuals. Just bear that in mind. Any employer, generally speaking, can with sufficient documentation properly articulate and defend the termination of employment of someone who is known to espouse and/or act on views contrary to the employers principles and ethics. CAF is really no different, although a CAF member gets considerably more bureaucratic protection than employees for many other organizations would see.
 
Brihard said it better than I above.

Eye In The Sky said:
Like COVID 19, you don't know until you know.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?
 
Brihard said:
Regarding releasing these individuals from CAF, procedural fairness, due process, etc... There's a different standard applied to terminating employment than there is to being charged with an offense.  It's very much in CAF's (and arguably Canada's) interest to be able to efficiently release people from military service who don't serve the unique needs thereof, or who are otherwise an undue liability or administrative burden. The courts have tested the administrative release process, and it holds up.

Correct.  And people who whine that "Admin Measures" are another form of punishment need to understand this.

Break the law (Code of Service Discipline) - military justice system
Conduct does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures
Performance does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures

Three distinct things, and a combination of the first and either of the latter two may be required in some cases.
 
[quote author=Infanteer]
Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?
[/quote]

Perhaps along the lines of the same attitude from members who incessantly disparage NCOs, Officers and the CAF in general but like the pay check.
 
Jarnhamar said:
Perhaps along the lines of the same attitude from members who incessantly disparage NCOs, Officers and the CAF in general but like the pay check.

That isn't a political ideology, that is a personal attitude that they are good to go and everyone else is incompetent.  Most of the times this isn't matched by reality - in fact it is generally the other way around.
 
Brihard said:
Any employer, generally speaking, can with sufficient documentation properly articulate and defend the termination of employment of someone who is known to espouse and/or act on views contrary to the employers principles and ethics. CAF is really no different, although a CAF member gets considerably more bureaucratic protection than employees for many other organizations would see.

My employer would tolerate almost anything. They didn't care what your prejudices were. But, outside of the station ( where basically anything was tolerated, especially in the old days ) if you treated anyone with disrespect on a call - you were history. You likely wouldn't lose your job. But, would find yourself shovelling sh^t in the sewers. Literally.

Sure there was a union. They'd send a rep to hold your hand. But, that was about it.

Towards the end on my career, a number of guys committed career suicide via social media.
 
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