Apache helicopter Vs. Tree. video (got to love pilots LOL)

[career_radio-checker]

Pilots  :

If only their smarts were as vast as their ego  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsW5-l-y6kY&NR

 

[aesop081]

: sig ops

That video is used for HPMA training for aircrews.  Some good CRM lessons in that one

 

[navymich]

: sig ops

That video is used for HPMA training for aircrews.  Some good CRM lessons in that one

Too quick for me cdnaviator.  I was just going to say that I got the "pleasure" of watching that last week during HPMA.

 

[career_radio-checker]

That video is used for HPMA training for aircrews.  Some good CRM lessons in that one

Pardon my ignorance, but could you explain what the "HPMA" and "CRM" stand for?

 

[Shamrock]

I don't see the big deal.  The armour corps repeatedly drives into trees -- with cameras present -- and no-one says boo.

Seriously though, what was the outcome of that?  Was he able to carry on with the flight?

 

[aesop081]

Pardon my ignorance, but could you explain what the "HPMA" and "CRM" stand for?

sorry...my bad !!

HPMA = Human Performance in MIlitary Aviation

CRM = Crew/Cockpit Resource Management

 

[Shamrock]

CRM = Crew/Cockpit Resource Management

Is that Airforcese for, "listen to your gunner?"

 

[aesop081]

Is that Airforcese for, "listen to your gunner?"

sort of

 

[career_radio-checker]

Is that Airforcese for, "listen to your gunner?"

"Oh, yee hath little faith"  ;D

 

[aesop081]

You know...CRM works......obviously in this case it did not.

I spoke up once during a messed up aproach and the pilots ( a major and a LCol ) listned to me ( the new guy) and went around for another try without taking me to task for it.  Once on the ground, we talked about it and that was then end of it.

 

[gaspasser]

You know...CRM works......obviously in this case it did not.

I spoke up once during a messed up aproach and the pilots ( a major and a LCol ) listned to me ( the new guy) and went around for another try without taking me to task for it.  Once on the ground, we talked about it and that was then end of it.

As it should be in cases like that.  Too much rank on the flight deck makes for a sterile plane.
Didn't Flight Plan teach us this?
Anyone can botch it up.  Being arrogant about it only makes it possible to do it again when lives are at stake.


Sometimes, I know waaayyy too much about the AirForce...


;D

 

[navymich]

Another example of possible lack of CRM which led to the loss of some of those onboard:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEOOwKiLTxg

 

[Inch]

Is that Airforcese for, "listen to your gunner?"

No, not really.

Different jobs, if I listened to my AESOp or navigator every time they got nervous coming over the deck of a ship, we'd never get the job done. Likewise, they know it's a high concentration evolution and don't say a peep while we're over the deck setting up for landing. While CRM is very important and speaking up when something concerns you, it's also important for guys to stay in their lanes when the situation warrants it. Everything else gets crew input, ultimately however, as the aircraft captain, you have command over everyone on board, you signed for the aircraft on the CO's authority and you're the one that will be taken to task if something goes wrong and it could have been avoided. In the same vein, you also need to know when to say "Noted, we're still continuing".

What would have cued me in the case of this video is how the gunner said without a doubt, "No", he didn't hum or haw, he knew. You need to be able to pick that up. So is the pilot to blame? Yep, didn't take the crew input and use it to complete the flight safely, however, the gunner is also to blame, he made no effort whatsoever to prevent the situation, the pilot asked if he thought they would make it and he said no, and that's all. Maybe this guy had a habit of questioning the pilot in all situations, the pilot began to brush off the gunner's concerns to the point of a inflight accident. Ever heard the saying "Don't cry wolf"?

 

[aesop081]

Different jobs, if I listened to my AESOp or navigator every time they got nervous coming over the deck of a ship, we'd never get the job done.

Inch,

Although the AC is ultimately responsible, if we crash, i'm only going to die 2 seconds later than the AC.  The trick for us guys in the back end is to understand whats going on up front even though its not our part-ship.  I pay attention to what the cockpit does at all times and by now i know enough to pick out things not going as they should.  In the incident i refered to, i didnt speak up because i "got nervous"...i spoke up because i flew the exact same aproach the day before, it hadnt gone very well ( TACAN aproach that turned into a PAR..). Its all experience ( which i admitedly lack) and learning when to speak up.

 

[Inch]

Inch,

Although the AC is ultimately responsible, if we crash, i'm only going to die 2 seconds later than the AC.  The trick for us guys in the back end is to understand whats going on up front even though its not our part-ship.  I pay attention to what the cockpit does at all times and by now i know enough to pick out things not going as they should.  In the incident i refered to, i didnt speak up because i "got nervous"...i spoke up because i flew the exact same aproach the day before, it hadnt gone very well ( TACAN aproach that turned into a PAR..). Its all experience ( which i admitedly lack) and learning when to speak up.

Not always the case, the backenders survived in the Griffon crash a few years ago as well as when Sea King 12425 went up in flames over NB.

TACAN into PAR? Never heard of it, PARs require swapping freqs, establishing comms and altering approach path. Best to pull up and go around rather than switching mid-approach. I don't think I've ever switched mid-approach other than losing the glide path and switching from ILS to Localizer only, and in that case only if the Localizer approach was briefed as well as the ILS.

If you're paying attention to what the two pilots are doing in a two pilot aircraft at all times, that tells me that you're not giving your part ship your full attention. Our AESOps and TACCOs are fully immersed in what is going on from their stations. Radar, Sonar, tactical computer, FLIR, etc. We drive the bus, there's two of us for a reason.

Truth is though, you didn't go through the 2 years of pilot training so while you may understand a bit of what's going on, you really don't have a full appreciation for our skillset or knowledge level. I have some very good friends that ditched last year, it's awful hard to call altitudes from the back without a RadAlt, BarAlt or low altitude tone in your headset. In your scenario, you were also in the back of the aircraft, never underestimate the function and utility of Eyeball, Mk1. I have flown radar approaches to ships, controlled from the backend that were absolute abortions, I can see it happening. My job is to keep the aircraft out of the water, altitude accomplishes that. However, on subsequent approaches to the ship that are still FUBAR, we opt for the TACAN approach, visual if VMC or a ship's radar controlled approach.

 

[aesop081]

Not always the case, the backenders survived in the Griffon crash a few years ago as well as when Sea King 12425 went up in flames over NB.

I know what you mean.

TACAN into PAR? Never heard of it, PARs require swapping freqs, establishing comms and altering approach path. Best to pull up and go around rather than switching mid-approach. I don't think I've ever switched mid-approach other than losing the glide path and switching from ILS to Localizer only, and in that case only if the Localizer approach was briefed as well as the ILS.

Yeah. We got re-sequenced and did a PAR instead.  We get together one day i will give you the long version.

If you're paying attention to what the two pilots are doing in a two pilot aircraft at all times, that tells me that you're not giving your part ship your full attention. Our AESOps and TACCOs are fully immersed in what is going on from their stations. Radar, Sonar, tactical computer, FLIR, etc. We drive the bus, there's two of us for a reason.

i guess we do things differently than you guys do.

Truth is though, you didn't go through the 2 years of pilot training so while you may understand a bit of what's going on, you really don't have a full appreciation for our skillset or knowledge level. I have some very good friends that ditched last year, it's awful hard to call altitudes from the back without a RadAlt, BarAlt or low altitude tone in your headset. In your scenario, you were also in the back of the aircraft, never underestimate the function and utility of Eyeball, Mk1. I have flown radar approaches to ships, controlled from the backend that were absolute abortions, I can see it happening. My job is to keep the aircraft out of the water, altitude accomplishes that. However, on subsequent approaches to the ship that are still FUBAR, we opt for the TACAN approach, visual if VMC or a ship's radar controlled approach.

You are quite correct, i dont have the training that you do. I would never say to the front end " i dont think you should fly this with XX flap setting"...i would never think of it. But saying " we did this TACAN aproach last night, in this airplane, for this exact runway, this was the result, we have been having TACAN issues for weeks...should we realy be doing this ?" i well within my lane.....no ?

 

[Inch]

i guess we do things differently than you guys do.

Only one AESOp on a Sea King and he's busy most of the time with Radar, FLIR or taking care of the aft cabin.

You are quite correct, i dont have the training that you do. I would never say to the front end " i dont think you should fly this with XX flap setting"...i would never think of it. But saying " we did this TACAN aproach last night, in this airplane, for this exact runway, this waste result...should we realy be doin this ?" i well within my lane.....no ?

I don't know the scenario, so I really can't comment on that, but if it was an aircraft problem, the previous crew should have wrote it up. If it was a crew problem, well, practice makes perfect, it was a different crew wasn't it? As long as you're on the radial and not below MDA, what's the harm in doing it again and again if the particular crew was having problems with it? The approaches are approved and deemed to meet certain criteria, there should be nothing unsafe about flying a published approach to the numbers. If weather is a concern, that's what precision approaches are for, shoot an approach to the lowest minima.

If it's TACAN station issues, it should be brought up the chain of command and be flight checked.

 

[aesop081]

Only one AESOp on a Sea King and he's busy most of the time with Radar, FLIR or taking care of the aft cabin.

Theres quite a few more of us and once we are off-station, i have lots of time.

I don't know the scenario, so I really can't comment on that, but if it was an aircraft problem, the previous crew should have wrote it up. If it was a crew problem, well, practice makes perfect, it was a different crew wasn't it? As long as you're on the radial and not below MDA, what's the harm in doing it again and again if the particular crew was having problems with it? The approaches are approved and deemed to meet certain criteria, there should be nothing unsafe about flying a published approach to the numbers. If weather is a concern, that's what precision approaches are for, shoot an approach to the lowest minima.

If it's TACAN station issues, it should be brought up the chain of command and be flight checked.

I'll be in your neck of the woods in april, if i can swing it, i'll give you the long version of the whole "saga" that was the TACAN here......but only over a beer......with airplane-like hand gestures  ;D

 

[Inch]

Theres quite a few more of us and once we are off-station, i have lots of time.


I'll be in your neck of the woods in april, if i can swing it, i'll give you the long version of the whole "saga" that was the TACAN here......but only over a beer......with airplane-like hand gestures  ;D

Can't be as bad as the TACAN issues in YZX, they don't even have a TACAN right now.

 

[aesop081]

Can't be as bad as the TACAN issues in YZX, they don't even have a TACAN right now.

If the TACAN had been U/S, it would have simplfied things........