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AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

GR66

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Turkey is rapidly becoming my new favourite country - real world innovation.

Rapidly building ships with powerplants on board for disaster relief. Why didn't we think of that? Back up power for the St Lawrence? The Arctic? The Caribbean? Vancouver?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/z8kk4x
Hmm...doesn't look very carbon-neutral to me. :unsure:

Perhaps we could send them a couple of solar panels instead?
 

suffolkowner

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I cant see what point in supplying these to Ukraine right now would be. Russia would just blow them up
 

Furniture

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I cant see what point in supplying these to Ukraine right now would be. Russia would just blow them up
Russia isn't dumb enough to target Turkish ships... Attacking a ship flagged in a NATO country while it's providing disaster relief would be a quick way to opening the flood gates of NATO supply to Ukraine.

Might even be enough to draw the Turks directly into the fighting.
 

suffolkowner

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Russia isn't dumb enough to target Turkish ships... Attacking a ship flagged in a NATO country while it's providing disaster relief would be a quick way to opening the flood gates of NATO supply to Ukraine.

Might even be enough to draw the Turks directly into the fighting.
I dont know about that. One Russia has proven itself to be plenty dumb enough. Two it would be a legitimate military target, what would be the point of knocking out infrastructure only to not target its replacement?
 

lenaitch

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Turkey is rapidly becoming my new favourite country - real world innovation.

Rapidly building ships with powerplants on board for disaster relief. Why didn't we think of that? Back up power for the St Lawrence? The Arctic? The Caribbean? Vancouver?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/z8kk4x
Interesting concept but we have a lot of landmass (and population) that is a long way from the sea (the Great Lakes, maybe, depending on the size of the ship), and every km of transmission adds losses. The utility infrastructure would have to be located shore-side in sufficient capacity to accept and transmit a decent load, even if it was just to the surrounding community. I don't think our problems are or would be related to generation, but distribution. The Quebec/eastern Ontario ice storm didn't take out generation. Having said that, there is room for creative thinking. I recall one Quebec community where they parked a locomotive at a road crossing and tapped it to the grid. I thought 'brilliant'. There would be some obvious technical issues to work out but what better than to have several thousand potential generators spread across the country.
 

Furniture

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I dont know about that. One Russia has proven itself to be plenty dumb enough. Two it would be a legitimate military target, what would be the point of knocking out infrastructure only to not target its replacement?
Any vehicle transporting war materiel to Ukraine is also a legitimate target, but I don't expect Russia to shoot down NATO transport aircraft flying to Poland.

Legitimate target or not, it would be a crossing a line that I strongly suspect Russia has no appetite to cross.
 

Kirkhill

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Interesting concept but we have a lot of landmass (and population) that is a long way from the sea (the Great Lakes, maybe, depending on the size of the ship), and every km of transmission adds losses. The utility infrastructure would have to be located shore-side in sufficient capacity to accept and transmit a decent load, even if it was just to the surrounding community. I don't think our problems are or would be related to generation, but distribution. The Quebec/eastern Ontario ice storm didn't take out generation. Having said that, there is room for creative thinking. I recall one Quebec community where they parked a locomotive at a road crossing and tapped it to the grid. I thought 'brilliant'. There would be some obvious technical issues to work out but what better than to have several thousand potential generators spread across the country.

I would dispute the lack of access by water.

Prince Rupert
Victoria
Nanaimo
Vancouver

Thunder Bay
Sault Ste Marie
Windsor
Sarnia
Niagara Falls
Hamilton
Golden Horseshoe
GTA
Everything downstream
Lac St Jean
All the Maritimes
All the Arctic Communities

In fact about the only place you couldn't drive a boat is Regina. Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon and Winnipeg would need a very shallow draft.
 

lenaitch

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I would dispute the lack of access by water.

Prince Rupert
Victoria
Nanaimo
Vancouver

Thunder Bay
Sault Ste Marie
Windsor
Sarnia
Niagara Falls
Hamilton
Golden Horseshoe
GTA
Everything downstream
Lac St Jean
All the Maritimes
All the Arctic Communities

In fact about the only place you couldn't drive a boat is Regina. Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon and Winnipeg would need a very shallow draft.
Ya, fair point (although getting a ship near Niagara Falls might be tricky). I qualified the Great Lakes as 'ship dependent' and the Arctic would be seasonally dependent. My point of shore-side transmission remains valid. There is little point in having a multi-megawatt generator parked at the pier when there is little or no capacity to get the power to the masses. Large extension cords won't cut it.
 

Furniture

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Ya, fair point (although getting a ship near Niagara Falls might be tricky). I qualified the Great Lakes as 'ship dependent' and the Arctic would be seasonally dependent. My point of shore-side transmission remains valid. There is little point in having a multi-megawatt generator parked at the pier when there is little or no capacity to get the power to the masses. Large extension cords won't cut it.
What about lots of small ones from Princess Auto and Canadian Tire? ;)
 

suffolkowner

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Any vehicle transporting war materiel to Ukraine is also a legitimate target, but I don't expect Russia to shoot down NATO transport aircraft flying to Poland.

Legitimate target or not, it would be a crossing a line that I strongly suspect Russia has no appetite to cross.
The difference is those vehicles werent in the war zone they were in a NATO country. If it wasnt a big deal then why wouldnt we just fly into Kyiv? Anyway its a curious game of chicken and a no win prospect for Russia if it happens. Leave ship alone=lots of power for Ukraine. Blow ship up = huge PR win for Ukraine probably resulting in more assets transfered to Ukraine
 

Kirkhill

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Ya, fair point (although getting a ship near Niagara Falls might be tricky). I qualified the Great Lakes as 'ship dependent' and the Arctic would be seasonally dependent. My point of shore-side transmission remains valid. There is little point in having a multi-megawatt generator parked at the pier when there is little or no capacity to get the power to the masses. Large extension cords won't cut it.
Fair.
 

Dana381

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Ya, fair point (although getting a ship near Niagara Falls might be tricky). I qualified the Great Lakes as 'ship dependent' and the Arctic would be seasonally dependent. My point of shore-side transmission remains valid. There is little point in having a multi-megawatt generator parked at the pier when there is little or no capacity to get the power to the masses. Large extension cords won't cut it.

Power line transformers work both ways. This is why Utility workers get quite upset when you hook a generator to your house without cutting your connection to the grid. The pole transformer turns your 240v generator power to 16,000 volts and can light him up.

If you tap into the grid like the locomotive mentioned above the ship could power the local grid. You wouldn't need extension cords except to the nearest hookup point. If the storm took out transmission to a city area a ship could feasibly repower the area until the transmission lines are restored.
 

Spencer100

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Power line transformers work both ways. This is why Utility workers get quite upset when you hook a generator to your house without cutting your connection to the grid. The pole transformer turns your 240v generator power to 16,000 volts and can light him up.

If you tap into the grid like the locomotive mentioned above the ship could power the local grid. You wouldn't need extension cords except to the nearest hookup point. If the storm took out transmission to a city area a ship could feasibly repower the area until the transmission lines are restored.
Was that that not the plan on Y2K? I thought I remember the Frigates were to be in Harbour and ready for hook up to the grid if there was problems on the date roll over.
 

lenaitch

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Power line transformers work both ways. This is why Utility workers get quite upset when you hook a generator to your house without cutting your connection to the grid. The pole transformer turns your 240v generator power to 16,000 volts and can light him up.

If you tap into the grid like the locomotive mentioned above the ship could power the local grid. You wouldn't need extension cords except to the nearest hookup point. If the storm took out transmission to a city area a ship could feasibly repower the area until the transmission lines are restored.
Transformers and cables don't care but a lot of the rest of the infrastructure does. All the technology loaded into grids now makes it more complex including all of the self-protection technology required to be part of an international synchronous grid. The grid was originally designed to take power from a relatively small number of big generators. With solar and wind generators popping up on country roads, now there are multiple small generators scattered into the system and in some cases they've actual had to limit connections because the grid can't keep up. You are right about stand-by generators. Now, the farm down the road has a solar array feeding the grid. if the grid goes down, it needs the tech to disconnect the farmer, not only to protect the grid protect itself and its crews but also the farmer's equipment because the existing load will try to suck the nuts out of the equipment.

I can only assume that a lot of isolation took place before that locomotive was connected. A typical diesel-electric locomotive can put out a couple thousand kilowatts (I doubt it could do it for long at maximum rpm while stationary). That's really not a whole lot. When we're talking about a ship probably putting out multiple megawatts, that "nearest hookup point" would have to be well engineered, robust, and already in place. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but your not hooking up that kind of power to the nearest street pole mounting a 50kva transformer.
 
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