• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,611
Points
1,040
Seriously? You're adding a decade and a billion dollars for Military Standards? The Asterix and Obelix would meet 95% of your requirements and if nothing else would save your Prima Donnas of the fleet for when they are, in your view, absolutely necessary and the merchant ships you are escorting just won't do.
Asterix is costing $691M for the capability over the 6 or so years, and it's just a lease so we don't own it. It does a good job at what it does but it does cost a lot more with less capability than JSS will deliver.
 

MTShaw

Member
Reaction score
56
Points
430
Seriously? You're adding a decade and a billion dollars for Military Standards? The Asterix and Obelix would meet 95% of your requirements and if nothing else would save your Prima Donnas of the fleet for when they are, in your view, absolutely necessary and the merchant ships you are escorting just won't do.
the quality of davie’s product is unknown to me, though they are overselling it. The GoC cannot insure any employee of Federal to be In any potential war zone.

I’m sure that Davie’s costs haven’t gone up. We don’t have through life costs to operate because we don’t own it.

I can’t F’ing believe we are back to debating full life costs versus a rental. And the benefits of mil standards for something that — unlike Asterix — will be necessary wit the AOR and the admiral at the centre of a Canadian battlegroup.

Holy Christ man.
 

MTShaw

Member
Reaction score
56
Points
430
So, what's the annual full cost of a JSS (including payroll)?
I don’t know. That would be odd for a Government to release, but you could ask under a FOI Might be quashed. Like I said, we only know full life costs.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
3,499
Points
1,060
the quality of davie’s product is unknown to me, though they are overselling it. The GoC cannot insure any employee of Federal to be In any potential war zone.

I’m sure that Davie’s costs haven’t gone up. We don’t have through life costs to operate because we don’t own it.

I can’t F’ing believe we are back to debating full life costs versus a rental. And the benefits of mil standards for something that — unlike Asterix — will be necessary wit the AOR and the admiral at the centre of a Canadian battlegroup.

Holy Christ man.

You could have bought the Asterix outright for a year's operating costs and bought the Obelix for another year of costs.

Of course then you would have to pay for your own gas and grub .... and find your own sailors and cooks to man them.
 

Underway

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
3,057
Points
1,040
So, what's the annual full cost of a JSS (including payroll)?
Won't really know the proper cost until we get the ship. Are you including the Task Group stores, fuel and ammo? Are you sailing at full load or just with fuel and dry stores (lighter ship cheaper fuel costs). What about an airdet? JSS has way more variables than a frigate does.

There are some estimates (I haven't seen them) but I'm not sure how valid they are now, given inflation, fuel price changes and the time between when they were created.
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
3,802
Points
1,160
You could have bought the Asterix outright for a year's operating costs and bought the Obelix for another year of costs.

Of course then you would have to pay for your own gas and grub .... and find your own sailors and cooks to man them.
If we did, we could stand up a Canadian RFA and also use it as a way for Canadian sailors to get their seatime for Ocean Navigator tickets and have slots for Merchant Marine Cadets as well.
 

MTShaw

Member
Reaction score
56
Points
430
I’m glad we are still worshipping Davie. We didn’t buy either because they didn’t meet our specifications. It could gas up ships, but that’s it. No carrying anything invlding ammunition, vehicles etc etc. No CBRN. No warship things like fire suppression, 2 drivelines. No battleship and commodore function as the JSS will be the command center of a Canadian battlegroup. And the ability to sail in a Baltic Sea.

Davie wanted Federal Fleet to be the RFA. Won’t happen

We cold have bought both for non-combatant areas. I don’t know if Canada could have used one if not both in that role. I would have like 2 JSS Atlantic and Asterix in the pacific. Asterix would have to be held back at Hawaii or Australia to keep it out of dangerous areas. So never a free launch.
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
3,802
Points
1,160
In reality we really need 4 AOR's, a JSS on each coast backed up by a Resolve class as well. That way you can do training with the Resolve class, cover the JSS when in refit and hot layup the Resolve when not need. If you buy the ship outright, you can build a RFA from ground up and not have it tied to one company or coast.
 

MTShaw

Member
Reaction score
56
Points
430
In reality we really need 4 AOR's, a JSS on each coast backed up by a Resolve class as well. That way you can do training with the Resolve class, cover the JSS when in refit and hot layup the Resolve when not need. If you buy the ship outright, you can build a RFA from ground up and not have it tied to one company or coast.
I agree. Once the JSS program is complete, the government won’t give that a second look. Hopefully the government realize that icebreaking opvs on the west coast are absolutely ridiculous.
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
3,802
Points
1,160
I agree. Once the JSS program is complete, the government won’t give that a second look. Hopefully the government realize that icebreaking opvs on the west coast are absolutely ridiculous.
Not really the CCG kept two ice breaker buoy tenders on the West Coast, of similar ice rating. In the summer months one would head north and do the Western Arctic. Likely one of the West Coast AOPs will do the same.
 

Jimbolio

Guest
Reaction score
3
Points
130
...didn’t meet our specifications. It could gas up ships, but that’s it. No carrying anything invlding ammunition, vehicles etc etc.
Is that true? I know the Navy has gone on and on about how it's not supposed to be a warship, but I've read nothing suggesting it can't carry anything other than marine fuels. In fact, I recently read the opposite! Is this something that's known in some circles, but not widely publicised?

That said, even if it were true, gassing up ships is no small feat, especially when the alternative is no capability whatsoever!
 

MTShaw

Member
Reaction score
56
Points
430
Is that true? I know the Navy has gone on and on about how it's not supposed to be a warship, but I've read nothing suggesting it can't carry anything other than marine fuels. In fact, I recently read the opposite! Is this something that's known in some circles, but not widely publicised?

That said, even if it were true, gassing up ships is no small feat, especially when the alternative is no capability whatsoever!
I’m new here and i know I’ve beaten this issue to frickin’ death. It can do dry stores. If you have something to add other than that, please add it.

More people love Davie and Asterix than i could have ever imagined.
 

Jimbolio

Guest
Reaction score
3
Points
130
I’m new here and i know I’ve beaten this issue to frickin’ death. It can do dry stores. If you have something to add other than that, please add it.

More people love Davie and Asterix than i could have ever imagined.
I don't have anything to add, other than what's publicly available. I know I've scoured some PDFs that many in the public won't read, but again, nothing that isn't publicly available with some searching. That's why I was asking. I was wondering if there was some story, where it was found to be not suitable for HADR, or carrying ammunition, etc. (ex. they were loading a vehicle, say, and the crane wasn't up to spec and collapsed).

I don't particularly love Davie, but I don't have a horse in the race. JSS shouldn't be compromised in favour of some as-yet unbuilt Obelix, but Asterix must be better than the fat lot of nothing that was sitting there before!
 

MTShaw

Member
Reaction score
56
Points
430
I don't have anything to add, other than what's publicly available. I know I've scoured some PDFs that many in the public won't read, but again, nothing that isn't publicly available with some searching. That's why I was asking. I was wondering if there was some story, where it was found to be not suitable for HADR, or carrying ammunition, etc. (ex. they were loading a vehicle, say, and the crane wasn't up to spec and collapsed).

I don't particularly love Davie, but I don't have a horse in the race. JSS shouldn't be compromised in favour of some as-yet unbuilt Obelix, but Asterix must be better than the fat lot of nothing that was sitting there before!
It is very useful for the time being. It is limited to how far or in it can go in or near a potential war zone So even in that it limits where Canadian interests lie. I don’t believe Asterix will last the JSS program because manning the ships with Canadian sailors is unlikely because thwy’ll be FAM’d on Asterix may lapse on Asterix as they are sailing on a JSS. And federal fleet is apparently quite expensive.

The crane is deigned to lift 10, 20 or 40ft containers. I don’t know if it lifts vehicles. Amy vehicles carried on a JSS will likely be loaded a port.

Ammunition transportation is quite difficult If my memory is correct, Davie tried to build a safe armoury, and failed. Transporting munitions by sea is by farrrrr more economical than by air Though i don’t know how much more exactly.
 
Reaction score
156
Points
530
And the answer is (drum roll) G-LAM
Well maybe not the complete answer but it does check off a lot of boxes. RAS capable, troops and equipment, looks like room for 3 S92 sized helicoptors, UAVs, large flight deck, ice capable (not sure to what class), etc. 3 or 4 of these could fill in a lot of gaps in multiple theatres.
 

FSTO

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,482
Points
1,090
It is very useful for the time being. It is limited to how far or in it can go in or near a potential war zone So even in that it limits where Canadian interests lie. I don’t believe Asterix will last the JSS program because manning the ships with Canadian sailors is unlikely because thwy’ll be FAM’d on Asterix may lapse on Asterix as they are sailing on a JSS. And federal fleet is apparently quite expensive.

The crane is deigned to lift 10, 20 or 40ft containers. I don’t know if it lifts vehicles. Amy vehicles carried on a JSS will likely be loaded a port.

Ammunition transportation is quite difficult If my memory is correct, Davie tried to build a safe armoury, and failed. Transporting munitions by sea is by farrrrr more economical than by air Though i don’t know how much more exactly.
Having our AOR’s going directly into harms way is an uniquely RCN feature which is dumb dumb dumb! We should have 6 RFA types and if we want to properly do HRDR then build a small flat deck that can carry Chinooks and and launch landing craft from a well deck. Anything short of this is farting in the wind.
 

MTShaw

Member
Reaction score
56
Points
430
Having our AOR’s going directly into harms way is an uniquely RCN feature which is dumb dumb dumb! We should have 6 RFA types and if we want to properly do HRDR then build a small flat deck that can carry Chinooks and and launch landing craft from a well deck. Anything short of this is farting in the wind.
This is Canada. We are always farting into the wind. I’m overjoyed that we haven't cancelled the JSS half way through.
 

OldSolduer

Army.ca Myth
Reaction score
4,364
Points
1,110
Question from the resident crayon eater:

How long should it take to build this ship?
 
Top