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AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

Navy_Pete

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Ammunition storage was also an issue; our rules our quit different from the Germans on what is allowed in magazines. We also buy a tonne of initial spares plus tech data, and things like training, infrastructure and other stuff is included in the overall ship budget.

If you look on the Auditor general site, there was a costing project on AOPs maybe about 5 years ago where they tried to compare the costs to other countries and ships.  It's a good read, but basically they concluded it was impossible to get an apples-to-apples comparison with any other comparable government procurement because countries include totally different things in their budgets and do the accounting differently, and also have different contracting rules (which impact price) so without getting access to the raw data from the projects, as well as the contract terms and conditions it's not possible to do. And even if you did, really doesn't matter, as there is a longstanding 'build in Canada' policy for all these ships.

Super frustrating though that when there are all these rules tacked on to any big dollar value procurement for Canadian content, IRBs etc that there isn't a project credit included somewhere when they report the budget.  For example, if a $1B dollar project creates $250M in clear economic benefits (or things like taxes that go directly back to the govt), it would be nice if that was included for context within the project updates.

Pretty ridiculous when it's a 70 year old, cabinet level 'Build in Canada' shipbuilding policy, combined with IRBs, VPs and other things that tack on to the overall project cost, but those benefits are not balanced into the project spreadsheets. You spend a whack of staff time arguing with folks in Finance etc on why it costs so much, when you had no option to do anything other then build it in Canada under those rules. Unless you run an open competition without any of those contract terms in play, it's also impossible to say what the 'premium' is for going this route with any real accuracy, but we can at least track the benefits down to a pretty reasonable number.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Without clear and open costing it also makes it hard to sell the design or build for others. They will hear X price was paid for X ship and then look elsewhere without taking the time to look at what may be their price.
 

Spencer100

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Colin P said:
Without clear and open costing it also makes it hard to sell the design or build for others. They will hear X price was paid for X ship and then look elsewhere without taking the time to look at what may be their price.

I doubt they really want to sell to others.  One big fat customer that pays is easy.  Sorry to be a downer but really.  How much did Irving really try to sell to the Saudi's the CPF's?  How much are they trying to sell the AOPS to RNZN?  Plus how much does the CDN Gov really help? Other nations really go out of their way to make deal, and a Canada deal does not help most countries geo politically (cough, cough SC Seat)  ....I know I'm being negative. 
 

Kirkhill

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Colin P said:
Without clear and open costing it also makes it hard to sell the design or build for others. They will hear X price was paid for X ship and then look elsewhere without taking the time to look at what may be their price.

Can you see the headlines if the Brits were to buy 4 1.4 BCAD ships for 400 MCAD apiece? 
 

Colin Parkinson

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Spencer100 said:
I doubt they really want to sell to others.  One big fat customer that pays is easy.  Sorry to be a downer but really.  How much did Irving really try to sell to the Saudi's the CPF's?  How much are they trying to sell the AOPS to RNZN?  Plus how much does the CDN Gov really help? Other nations really go out of their way to make deal, and a Canada deal does not help most countries geo politically (cough, cough SC Seat)  ....I know I'm being negative.

they may make money by selling the updated design, I doubt we can directly compete with South Korea, however if the ships have minimal teething issues, it may make them more attractive. I would not be surprised if New Zealand, Chile or Argentina expressed interest in the AOP's, either built here or a licenced build. 
 

Underway

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Colin P said:
they may make money by selling the updated design, I doubt we can directly compete with South Korea, however if the ships have minimal teething issues, it may make them more attractive. I would not be surprised if New Zealand, Chile or Argentina expressed interest in the AOP's, either built here or a licenced build.

Naval allies always take a good look at what each other are building.  NZ has a desire for an ice-resistant patrol boat.  RNZN visits Canada and does an Irving tour, seeing what we are doing and the problems/solutions we have and developed.  RNZN goes home and uses that info to develop its own requirements.

Not that big of a deal.  There is a reason RNZN ANZACs did the upgrade they did.  Because they comparative shopped, looked at their own requirements and then chose a HCM type upgrade vs the Australian refit (with the CEAFAR etc...).  UK is looking at JSS for similar reasons.

To say we are trying to sell the boat (as I may have stated earlier in this thread but have now changed my position) might be premature.  Happy to provide the glossy brochure but its more of a car show and less a dealership visit.
 

Dana381

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I have not heard anything on this in a while but is the RCN still planning on ending the lease on MV Asterix when the JSS come online? I have been hoping they keep her and build the second ship that Davie proposed.

I see pictures of RCN vessels RASing (sp?) with foreign oiler ships frequently on combat camera. Would it not be more cost effective to provide our own support whenever possible? I'm sure RASing from foreign navy's must be expensive as we are slave to whatever they wish to charge for fuel and supplies. What do we do when our JSS need repairs or refits? Would MV Asterix and even the second ship that Davie proposed save us a lot of money in the long run?

Forgive me if these questions were asked and answered already but is the Protecteur class going to be ice capable? How do we support our shiny new AOPS ships if not? I did not see any mention of ice class on the wiki page. To me it would make little sense for Canada to build navy support ships that were not ice capable. But what do I know.
 

Colin Parkinson

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I doubt anyone knows for sure, by the time the 2nd JSS comes online, Astreix is going to need a good refit. I personally believe we need 4 AOR's. I believe it's time that we had a proper Fleet Auxiliary Arm like the RFA, and that manning model solves manpower issues for the RCN. I have heard that the Fleet Services deal is pricey, but they were the only Canadian option on the table. Once the JSS is online, then we can negotiate a better deal. I also think by the time the 2nd JSS goes into service, the preferred postings will be to the AOP's and AOR's as the Halifax's will be very long in the tooth and the bunking arrangement less than stellar compared to the newer ships.   
 

Lumber

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Colin P said:
I doubt anyone knows for sure, by the time the 2nd JSS comes online, Astreix is going to need a good refit. I personally believe we need 4 AOR's. I believe it's time that we had a proper Fleet Auxiliary Arm like the RFA, and that manning model solves manpower issues for the RCN. I have heard that the Fleet Services deal is pricey, but they were the only Canadian option on the table. Once the JSS is online, then we can negotiate a better deal. I also think by the time the 2nd JSS goes into service, the preferred postings will be to the AOP's and AOR's as the Halifax's will be very long in the tooth and the bunking arrangement less than stellar compared to the newer ships. 

The bunking arrangements on Asterix are phenomenal! Every one gets their own pricate cabin, every cabin ha their own bathroom AND shower with heated floors. Every cabin has a tv and WiFi and all the cabins are networked so you can jsut sit in your cabin and skype with family, watch Netflix by yourself, or play video games against others around the ship. Or you could go to the mess, which are also as nice. The gym is HUGE, and the unclass internet is top notch. Not sure how good the food is though, just haven't heard about it.
 

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Dana381 said:
I have not heard anything on this in a while but is the RCN still planning on ending the lease on MV Asterix when the JSS come online? I have been hoping they keep her and build the second ship that Davie proposed.

I see pictures of RCN vessels RASing (sp?) with foreign oiler ships frequently on combat camera. Would it not be more cost effective to provide our own support whenever possible? I'm sure RASing from foreign navy's must be expensive as we are slave to whatever they wish to charge for fuel and supplies. What do we do when our JSS need repairs or refits? Would MV Asterix and even the second ship that Davie proposed save us a lot of money in the long run?

Forgive me if these questions were asked and answered already but is the Protecteur class going to be ice capable? How do we support our shiny new AOPS ships if not? I did not see any mention of ice class on the wiki page. To me it would make little sense for Canada to build navy support ships that were not ice capable. But what do I know.

As it stands Asterix more than likely won't be retained, by the time the Protectueur Class is operational the ship will be nearing 20 years old and used extensively. As people have mentioned 3 AOR's would be great, I just don't see it happening given resources and political climate. There are other considerations that make Asterix different from a total RCN crewed vessel, one of which as its a civilian owned vessel you more than likely won't see it past 60 degrees north.
 

Dana381

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Chief Engineer said:
As it stands Asterix more than likely won't be retained, by the time the Protectueur Class is operational the ship will be nearing 20 years old and used extensively. As people have mentioned 3 AOR's would be great, I just don't see it happening given resources and political climate. There are other considerations that make Asterix different from a total RCN crewed vessel, one of which as its a civilian owned vessel you more than likely won't see it past 60 degrees north.

I don't think I am the only one that hoped with how well Asterix has been performing the RCN would have a change of heart and either buy it or extend the lease. I know the Navy would never consider her a full Navy vessel so buying is likely out of the question, but the arrangement currently seems to be working very well. I believe many hoped to see Asterix and maybe her sister working alongside the Protectueur class someday. I am aware that she will never be sent north, I was asking about the ice class of Protectueur class. Is the plan to make it ice capable?
 

Stoker

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Dana381 said:
I don't think I am the only one that hoped with how well Asterix has been performing the RCN would have a change of heart and either buy it or extend the lease. I know the Navy would never consider her a full Navy vessel so buying is likely out of the question, but the arrangement currently seems to be working very well. I believe many hoped to see Asterix and maybe her sister working alongside the Protectueur class someday. I am aware that she will never be sent north, I was asking about the ice class of Protectueur class. Is the plan to make it ice capable?

It will have some ice rating but won't be able to operate in heavy ice. We don't RAS above 60 and we have a naval refueling depot in the Arctic to refuel AOPS and other vessels.

The problem of a leased vessel is that its incredibly expensive and if the civilian master decides that his civilian crew has worked their max hours then operations could be shutdown. The kind of accommodations onboard are not realistic for RCN personnel and have issues when Jr personnel were posted pack to the fleet.
 

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Chief Engineer said:
Asterix different from a total RCN crewed vessel, one of which as its a civilian owned vessel you more than likely won't see it past 60 degrees north.

As I understand it, Asterix actually took part in Operation Nanook this year.
 

Stoker

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jmt18325 said:
As I understand it, Asterix actually took part in Operation Nanook this year.

It did, just not North of 60 which is Arctic waters. AIS tells the tale
 

Underway

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Chief Engineer said:
The problem of a leased vessel is that its incredibly expensive...

And its over budget.  Not the perfect success story Davie would have you believe.  Still, love to keep it or have something similar in the process.
 

Stoker

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Underway said:
And its over budget.  Not the perfect success story Davie would have you believe.  Still, love to keep it or have something similar in the process.

Yes keep it but with a RCN crew so we don't keep paying through the nose. Davie is very deceptive with their PR, the latest is a graphic for their "national" icebreaking center. They claim AOPS won't be able to operate in the NWP.  They are more than likely a 7 to 8 years away from delivering a new vessel, kind of premature.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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A few things need clarification here, I believe.

First, as Chief Engineer pointed out, the RCN does not RAS in Arctic waters (to be in compliance with the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act). So the question becomes what is the point of even taking one up there at all then? And that is the reason they don't go past 60 degrees North.

This is not related to any capacity/incapacity to go. Asterix's hull is much more capable of taking hit s by ice than the frigates or MCDV's we send up there. There is no requirement for any specifically reinforced hull to operate there in the "ice-free" navigation season. The Arctic villages are resupplied in that navigation season by ships, mostly from the Desgagné group, and they use standard cargo ships with no special hull reinforcement of any kind.

Second, before we call leased vessels "expensive" or "over budget", we better be looking at true cost for the RCN. The leased vessel is known fixed price to start with and includes everything provided by the contract. It is only when the RCN choose to ask that the supplier exceed what is provided by the contract that the costs increases. So if you are over budget, it's probably because the RCN wants more done by the ship than what was originally negotiated.

As for being "expensive", you have to compare to a RCN owned and operated vessel on equal terms: you have to include the actual cost of the ship, all it's refits, the cost in salary and employment related costs (pension, medical, insurance, etc.) of the RCN crew, the cost of shore support facilities related t the ship, it's maintenance, upkeep and operation cost, calculated on an annual basis. You can't only look at fuel because all these other costs are "sunk" costs. When you do that, I am not convinced the leased vessel is more expensive than a RCN owned and run ship.

Finally, nobody in the thread is proposing that Asterix should remain a leased vessel. What I read above is that just about everybody proposes that Asterix be acquired (the fixed cost to do so is in the contract, should Canada want to exercise that option) by the GoC and turned over to the CFAV (CNAV today?), i.e. that it become operated by merchant mariner employed directly by the crown as employees of DND, who then answer to the RCN for support requirements. That would be cheaper in terms of personnel and operations costs than a RCN operated vessel.
 

Stoker

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
A few things need clarification here, I believe.

First, as Chief Engineer pointed out, the RCN does not RAS in Arctic waters (to be in compliance with the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act). So the question becomes what is the point of even taking one up there at all then? And that is the reason they don't go past 60 degrees North.

This is not related to any capacity/incapacity to go. Asterix's hull is much more capable of taking hit s by ice than the frigates or MCDV's we send up there. There is no requirement for any specifically reinforced hull to operate there in the "ice-free" navigation season. The Arctic villages are resupplied in that navigation season by ships, mostly from the Desgagné group, and they use standard cargo ships with no special hull reinforcement of any kind.

Second, before we call leased vessels "expensive" or "over budget", we better be looking at true cost for the RCN. The leased vessel is known fixed price to start with and includes everything provided by the contract. It is only when the RCN choose to ask that the supplier exceed what is provided by the contract that the costs increases. So if you are over budget, it's probably because the RCN wants more done by the ship than what was originally negotiated.

As for being "expensive", you have to compare to a RCN owned and operated vessel on equal terms: you have to include the actual cost of the ship, all it's refits, the cost in salary and employment related costs (pension, medical, insurance, etc.) of the RCN crew, the cost of shore support facilities related t the ship, it's maintenance, upkeep and operation cost, calculated on an annual basis. You can't only look at fuel because all these other costs are "sunk" costs. When you do that, I am not convinced the leased vessel is more expensive than a RCN owned and run ship.

Finally, nobody in the thread is proposing that Asterix should remain a leased vessel. What I read above is that just about everybody proposes that Asterix be acquired (the fixed cost to do so is in the contract, should Canada want to exercise that option) by the GoC and turned over to the CFAV (CNAV today?), i.e. that it become operated by merchant mariner employed directly by the crown as employees of DND, who then answer to the RCN for support requirements. That would be cheaper in terms of personnel and operations costs than a RCN operated vessel.

Its true that due to environmental considerations we don't RAS about 60 degrees, however apparently the reason why Asterix doesn't go above is because the company who owns the ship is not insured to go above. If the RCN owned the ship, the RCN would assume the risk and operate up there if needed ie filling up the tanks at the Arctic fueling depot. I imagine the insurance company not willing to insure a large ship filled with fueling in an environmentally sensitive area with ice.

As for cost, I suspect the cost wasn't as cheap as the RCN had hoped.
 
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