AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Czech_pivo]

I couldn’t find the full specs on the Den Helder, but yes I doubt they will have the command and control capability of the JSS.

So is what being said is that the JSS will replace the command and control capability that our old Iroquois class had within a TF? 

Are we going down the path that an AOS provider is taking on the role of a Task Group Leaders?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Does it have the speed and maneuvering to fight like that.

 

[Underway]

Does it have the speed and maneuvering to fight like that.

Fight like what? 

So is what being said is that the JSS will replace the command and control capability that our old Iroquois class had within a TF? 

Are we going down the path that an AOS provider is taking on the role of a Task Group Leaders?

No.  JSS has a full command and control capability to be able to run a Task Group. What kind of TG I'm sure will depend on the mission.  For example, a Gulf War scenario where Canada ran the naval resupply and refuel part of the mission. It might be ideal for that sort of job. The AOR's historically have also participated in a number of boardings and interdictions over the years.  Might be great at directing and coordinating humanitarian missions with AOPS. the army and airforce combined.  Embarking and providing infrastructure for SOF is awkward on the frigates. Running a full naval combat task group in a war probably still falls to a frigate or destroyer.

The path going forward seems to me (speculation past here) to be that all new build major surface ships will have an ability to embark a Command Staff of some sort.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Fight like what? 

No.  JSS has a full command and control capability to be able to run a Task Group. What kind of TG I'm sure will depend on the mission.  For example, a Gulf War scenario where Canada ran the naval resupply and refuel part of the mission. It might be ideal for that sort of job. The AOR's historically have also participated in a number of boardings and interdictions over the years.  Might be great at directing and coordinating humanitarian missions with AOPS. the army and airforce combined.  Embarking and providing infrastructure for SOF is awkward on the frigates. Running a full naval combat task group in a war probably still falls to a frigate or destroyer.

The path going forward seems to me (speculation past here) to be that all new build major surface ships will have an ability to embark a Command Staff of some sort.

If we want to dominate remote and strategically vital parts of the globe more, and more durable, logistics platforms like the JSS, as opposed to bigger and better 'battleships', might be the best ploy...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What astounds me is that having a fleet of capable AOR's, is great way for a Liberal government to help our Allies, earning brownie points and yet minimize political risk in operations. One would think they be all over that idea.

 

[Sub_Guy]

What astounds me is that having a fleet of capable AOR's, is great way for a Liberal government to help our Allies, earning brownie points and yet minimize political risk in operations. One would think they be all over that idea.

You aren't wrong.

For the same reasons you stated I find it odd that we don't have a ship like the Karel Doorman.  Yes our JSS can support various mission types, but let's not kid ourselves, it is just an AOR.  It is planned to have a crew of 199 (not including airdet) with space for 239.  How much of the extra 40 will be taken up by the airdet? 

Really doesn’t leave much space for anything else does it?  There certainly isn't space for an afloat JTFHQ...

 

[Kirkhill]

You aren't wrong.

For the same reasons you stated I find it odd that we don't have a ship like the Karel Doorman.  Yes our JSS can support various mission types, but let's not kid ourselves, it is just an AOR.  It is planned to have a crew of 199 (not including airdet) with space for 239.  How much of the extra 40 will be taken up by the airdet? 

Really doesn’t leave much space for anything else does it?  There certainly isn't space for an afloat JTFHQ...

Same same.

And the Doorman type ships (or any other flat topped logistics vessel - civvy, militarized or military) would do a lot more in terms of gaining UN brownie points - Just like the C130s, C17s, CH-147s and CH-146s. 

1.9 BUSD buys you 10 Triple E Container ships, brand new from the yard (190 MUSD apiece) with two screws, two times 30 MW engines, a crew of 31 and 16 knots cruise (23 knots max).  That's a beast just shy of 400 m long and 60 m wide.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Prefer a couple of these with gantry style crane and some floating dock sections. https://www.macgregor.com/Products/merchant-cargo-and-passengers/deepsea-roro-ships/

 

[daftandbarmy]

$1 billion and counting: Inside Canada's troubled efforts to build new warships

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigates-joint-supply-ships-navy-procurement-canada-1.5474312

 

[Underway]

You aren't wrong.

For the same reasons you stated I find it odd that we don't have a ship like the Karel Doorman.  Yes our JSS can support various mission types, but let's not kid ourselves, it is just an AOR.  It is planned to have a crew of 199 (not including airdet) with space for 239.  How much of the extra 40 will be taken up by the airdet? 

Really doesn’t leave much space for anything else does it?  There certainly isn't space for an afloat JTFHQ...

Actual crew numbers are still being decided.  Total bunk space has been decided.  The ship has a surprising amount of space.

The Karel Doorman isn't really a great concept in practice.  Much better to go with the proper AOR's like other navies IMHO.  The Dutch were trying something to allow them to keep their Marines relevant.  We don't have that same historical/political pressure in Canada.  We have the Regimental System instead to handcuff us.

 

[Sub_Guy]

The most recent SOR I read had those numbers.

I figured a ship like the KD would be a fantastic humanitarian platform.  AOR duties would be secondary, I wouldn’t expect it replace the AOR, just complement the force. 

Instead of sending our AOR to humanitarian crisis areas we could send the KD.  Leaving the AOR where it’s needed, with the fleet.

 

[dapaterson]

Given the condition of the CPFs, keeping the JSS with the fleet likely means keeping them alongside in Halifax and Esquimalt...

 

[Underway]

The most recent SOR I read had those numbers.

You are not incorrect, however, as much of the specific equipment onboard is still being finalized there will be changes to crew numbers for core crew, training billets, etc...

 

[OceanBonfire]

First of two Grand Blocks for @RoyalCanNavy future Joint Support Ship HMCS Protecteur being welded together and @Seaspan team moving next Grand Block into position.

https://twitter.com/MoreThanShips/status/1234845920082178050

 

[Colin Parkinson]

RN looking for Support ships as well https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/05/28/british-spanish-naval-team-gunning-for-another-go-at-revamped-uk-carrier-support-program/

 

[MilEME09]

RN looking for Support ships as well https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/05/28/british-spanish-naval-team-gunning-for-another-go-at-revamped-uk-carrier-support-program/

Perhaps seaspan can bid to build them some support ships. Fuel the funds to have an expanded yard.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Picture is from Nov 2019, but really shows the tankage and piping arrangement.

 

[MilEME09]

https://www.seaspan.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-6-scaled.jpg

Picture from the keel laying ceremony.

Interested Seaspan never announced a shut down due to covid, unlike Irving so as far as public information, HMCS protector is on schedule still.

 

[Underway]

RN looking for Support ships as well https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/05/28/british-spanish-naval-team-gunning-for-another-go-at-revamped-uk-carrier-support-program/

Yes, I've heard they are casting around for info on AOR's in NATO to get some ideas on what is out there and what is possible.

Interested Seaspan never announced a shut down due to covid, unlike Irving so as far as public information, HMCS protector is on schedule still.

They are still building.  Much more of their build is outside so they are able to keep their staff distant from each other, and they changed up shifts to accommodate this as well.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

It's HMCS PROTECTEUR, not Protector.

An important nuance.