AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Stoker]

It's 500 days more at sea than anything that ISI has produced under NSPS...

And, for clarity, 500 days ago is Monday April 16th, 2018, so I suspect that they're counting the deployment time as their time away from their home port of Halifax.  That's not 500 days at sea, that's 500 days away from home port.  Seeing as the MV Asterix departed on 11 April 2018, it was 502 days.

In the same way that when I went to Libya in 2011, it was a 6 month deployment- we left on 02 Mar, and got back on 02 Sep.  That was 6 months.  During that time, we were alongside for about 10-12 port visits - roughly one every two weeks or so, with a longer RAMP in the middle.

Did we deduct those days from our deployment?  Not likely.

I just thought it was a bit misleading. Good work by all though.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

She was gone a long time;  we saw her during PROJECTION almost a year ago, and I've been back from that deployment long enough for the Christmas to happen, the year to change, and file my amended T4 for taxes late this summer.  Remembering back to the last time I saw her in person...yup...that's a long time.

to the crews.

 

[JMCanada]

Off topic: yesterday, Stalwart, second AOR for the RAN, was launched at El Ferrol shipyards (Spain).

 

[Underway]

Ship to shore connectors bid awarded.

The Wartanker just can't be kept out of the fight.

 

[Cloud Cover]

MND says they are for JSS, but would these not also be useful to AOPs?

 

[Underway]

MND says they are for JSS, but would these not also be useful to AOPs?

These are going to be much larger than the ones for AOPS.  They should be able to carry ISO's and vehicles.  AOPS is mainly personnel and snowmobiles.

 

[Kirkhill]

The modular and configurable ship-to-shore connectors will adapt to almost any mission. They could be used as a temporary jetty anchored to the shoreline, as a large barge to assist in ship maintenance and repair, or to perform evacuation operations.

This sounds more like a Mexeflote than an LCU/LCM.

 

[Kirkhill]

I believe this is the relevant Notice of Proposed Procurement.  Closed this May

https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement-data/tender-notice/PW-JSS-009-27123

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Good picture of the first full block https://twitter.com/MoreThanShips/status/1194372070181703680

 

[Czech_pivo]

Keel laying for the new JSS -

This article has tomorrow's date on it - Jan 16/20 - jumping the gun a bit.

https://www.miragenews.com/ceremonial-keel-laying-for-future-joint-support-ship/

 

[MarkOttawa]

RCN's first JSS now supposed to be delivered 2023 (good luck) and the two will cost $1.7 billion (!!!) each:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Now Damen is building similar ship in Netherlands for their navy; contract just signed, delivery planned in just over four years, cost just some $540 million. Go flippin' shipbuilding figure:

Damen Inks Contract for Royal Netherlands Navy new Combat Support Ship
The contract for the construction of the Royal Netherlands Navy's new Combat Support Ship, HNLMS Den Helder, was signed today [Febl. 19] between local shipbuilder Damen and the Dutch Defense Materiel Organization (DMO).

Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding (DSNS) will supervise the project, together with DMO, as the main contractor. Damen will not do this alone; more than a hundred companies from the Dutch naval construction sector are involved in this ship. This means that a large part of the sector will be deployed to participate in this innovative new ship.

With HNLMS Den Helder, the maritime supply capacity of the Royal Netherlands Navy will be restored. The ship will operate alongside the Joint Support Ship HNLMS Karel Doorman. This vessel also forms the basis for the design of this Combat Support Ship. The new ship can be used worldwide and can operate under high threat, protected by frigates. In addition, she can be used in the fight against drug trafficking, controlling refugee flows and providing emergency aid...

The construction contract is not contracted out elsewhere in Europe. DMO wishes to keep the knowledge and skills of designing and building naval ships in the Netherlands. The armed forces thus invoked Article 346 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It states that Member States may protect essential security interests. This also relates to the production of defence equipment.

Completion is scheduled for the second quarter of 2024. A year later, in the second quarter of 2025, the Combat Support Ship must be operable. The size of the total project budget is 375 million euros...

The nearly 200-meter-long ship will have a 75-person crew and can also take an additional 75 people on board. The design can accommodate several helicopters and around 20 ISO containers. The construction cost of 375 million Euros is almost € 50 million higher than previously calculated. This is partly due to new standard requirements and developments in marine construction, energy, the environment and safety.

For example, the design has now explicitly looked at fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. The combination of diesel engines, hull shape and propeller design reduces fuel consumption by around 6 percent compared to the Karel Doorman JSS.

Delivery of the Den Helder is scheduled for the 2nd quarter of 2024. A year later, in the 2nd quarter of 2025, the CSS must be ready for duty with the RNLN.

During NEDS 2019, Damen was showcasing a scale model of the CSS (pictures above) featuring the following dimensions:

    Length over all: 179.3 meters
    Beam: 26.4 meters
    Displacement: 22,400 tonnes
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/02/damen-inks-contract-for-royal-netherlands-navy-new-combat-support-ship/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Underway]

RCN's first JSS now supposed to be delivered 2023 (good luck) and the two will cost $1.7 billion (!!!) each:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Now Damen is building similar ship in Netherlands for their navy; contract just signed, delivery planned in just over four years, cost just some $540 million. Go flippin' shipbuilding figure:

Mark
Ottawa

@Mark,  the ships are not even remotely similar aside from the fact they do the refueling mission.  Look more towards Asterix for a comparison.

JSS has some significant differences from this ship starting with crew numbers (75?  when do they refuel?  From 10 to 2 only?), communications, combat management, sensors, defensive systems, medical staff etc...

Once again JSS is a warship with all the pros and cons that entails.

As for the timeline, it's actually closer to 2022 though I do expect it to slip into 2023 for acceptance by the RCN.  I do expect builders trials to be happening in 2022.  The ship is well underway right now from a block build perspective.  1/5th of the blocks have already been built from what I've been told.

 

[MarkOttawa]

RCN's first JSS now supposed to be delivered 2023 (good luck) and the two will cost $1.7 billion (!!!) each:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Now Damen is building similar ship in Netherlands for their navy; contract just signed, delivery planned in just over four years, cost just some $540 million. Go flippin' shipbuilding figure:

Mark
Ottawa

New Combat Support Ship "Den Helder" for Netherlands navy will actually be built in Romania--earlier from Damen:

...
The new Combat Support Ship (CSS) is based on the design of the Joint Support Ship Zr.Ms. Karel Doorman. By taking an existing design as a basis, it is possible to deliver the ship in 2024. The almost 200-meter-long ship will have a 75-person crew and can also take an additional 75 people on board. There is room for several helicopters and around twenty containers. The engineering of the CSS largely takes place in the Netherlands and a large number of components will be delivered by Dutch suppliers. The CSS is built by Damen in Romania, after which the ship’s final components and the combat management system will be installed in Den Helder [name also of shipyard in Netherlands]...
https://www.damen.com/en/news/2019/12/dutch_cabinet_decides_to_build_combat_support_ship_zr_ms_den_helder

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Sub_Guy]

Once again JSS is a warship with all the pros and cons that entails.

From the article about the Den Helder.  “The new ship can be used worldwide and can operate under high threat, protected by frigates. In addition, she can be used in the fight against drug trafficking, controlling refugee flows and providing emergency aid.” 

What makes the JSS different?  I assume the JSS will have a self-defence suite and that’s it.  The vessel won’t be entering high threat environments without protection.

I don’t disagree with you, but what makes the JSS a warship and the Den Helder not?

 

[MarkOttawa]

Gov't classifies JSS as one of"Non-combat vessel shipbuilding projects" assigned to Seaspan:
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/grandnav-largeves-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MTShaw]

Gov't classifies JSS as one of"Non-combat vessel shipbuilding projects" assigned to Seaspan:
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/grandnav-largeves-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa

Hi Mark,

That’s the politics of shipbuilding. In an war these would be the first to be targeted. Canada needs oilers to make it to and from the war zone. The Dutch already live there. Having some Kevlar armour, HY80 and two independent drive lines costs money. Also, give Seaspan a bit of a break: they are learning how make war ships for the first time. 

Finally, 1.7bn covers infrastructure, training and in life service. It is very difficult to compare two different builds on money.

Michael

 

[Uzlu]

RCN's first JSS now supposed to be delivered 2023 (good luck) and the two will cost $1.7 billion (!!!) each

Finn said that the final contract to be signed with the builder will not be for $3.4 billion.  The cost of the ships represents only 60 per cent of the revised figure, said Finn

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supply-ships-cost-estimate-1.4693088

The report said the main problem facing the industry is that foreign governments heavily subsidize their shipyards, leaving Canadians unable to compete.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/no-subsidies-for-shipbuilding-industry-says-tobin-1.270095

 

[Sub_Guy]

give Seaspan a bit of a break: they are learning how make war ships for the first time. 

Yet they will still produce a quality product.

Unlike Irving who continually deliver crap.

 

[Underway]

From the article about the Den Helder.  “The new ship can be used worldwide and can operate under high threat, protected by frigates. In addition, she can be used in the fight against drug trafficking, controlling refugee flows and providing emergency aid.” 

What makes the JSS different?  I assume the JSS will have a self-defence suite and that’s it.  The vessel won’t be entering high threat environments without protection.

I don’t disagree with you, but what makes the JSS a warship and the Den Helder not?

A few things. Open source things JSS will have.  I doubt very much that Den Helder will have even a few of these:

CBRN capability (ie can operate in those environments)
Operations Room capable of supporting a Task Group Command Staff
Communications suite capable of supporting a Task Group Command Staff
2 Phalanx CIWS
4 Naval Remote Weapon Systems plus more 2 .50 cal mounts
Full damage control capability
Full support to Cyclone for all Cyclone operations including ASW
Air/Surface Surveillance radar (not just navigation radars) with of course a longer radar horizon than the frigates currently have due to height of eye...

Gov't classifies JSS as one of"Non-combat vessel shipbuilding projects" assigned to Seaspan:

Yes, that's true.  A warship can operate in a war zone.  A combatant fights in a war zone.  (All cats are mammals but not all mammals are cats).  JSS weapon systems are defensive (excluding some helo ops.).

 

[Sub_Guy]

Full support to Cyclone for all Cyclone operations including ASW

As soon as the MH community masters the ASP (Acoustic Processor) on the Cyclone they will own the UWW game.  A TG with a few frigates and the JSS could quite possibly have 3-4 cyclones... No where to hide.

I understand the CH-148 dipping sonar is probably the best out there right now.  I am very familiar with the with the acoustic processor and the passive tracking capability (operators need to know how to work it and understand the passive side, which can take a while) is quite remarkable.  Ping stealing from hull mounted sonar and other dippers, the ranges will blow you away. It can be done, I’ve seen it.

I couldn’t find the full specs on the Den Helder, but yes I doubt they will have the command and control capability of the JSS.