Another derailment....

[DG-41]

We all believe that the Museum of Civilisation and CWN knuckled under to pressures somewhere in the systems (albeit, and perhaps, not even apparent or overt to them) to reinforce a shameful decision by a previous "regime" in Ottawa. The Liberals got nervous when they took power, and punished an entire regiment for the actions of a few. Something which is, and was, inherently against the ethos of the military. The Conservatives were no better.

*sigh*

I'm about to lose some friends, I guess, but leadership and morality isn't a popularity contest.

Speaking as someone who was in the Regs during the time when that whole Somalia thing happened, I think the decision to disband the Airborne Regiment was entirely appropriate and went a long, LONG way to restoring the lost honour of the CF in general.

Those sonsofbitches beat a kid to death - a kid who should have been under our protection. That's the whole Canadian military ethos - we protect those who cannot protect themselves. Having the Canadians show up means that the bad things are going to stop (or at least slow down) because the Canadians are (at least by reputation) viturous and honourable and incorruptable, and have the moral courage to do what is *right* over what is easy or profitable.

That is the reputation that generations of Canadian soldiers fought and died to establish. It is, perhaps, our single greatest asset as a nation. And those stupid bastards nearly undid it all at a stroke.

By disbanding the Airborne - an unquestionalbly heavy-handed action - we sent the message to both other nations and to our own people that this sort of behaviour was absolutely not representative of how we wanted Canadian troops to behave, and that we would take drastic action against any unit that allowed this sort of thing to take place.

The actual actions were the result of a few individuals, but the consequences resonated throughout the country and the entire world. Ultimately, it was a failure of leadership at all levels, and dire consequences resulted. It took tremendous courage and resolve to respond with something big enough to set things right.

Before the disbanding of the Airborne, it was "Well, I guess the Canadians aren't so pure after all". After the disbanding of the Airborne, it was "Holy shit! The Canadians take the conduct of their soldiers way more seriously than we ever thought!"

The shame of it is that so many good soldiers had to be punished for the actions of a few bad apples, but at the end of the day, the punishment did what it was supposed to do and restored the lost honour of all of us. That, to me, made it worth the cost.

And it is entirely right and appropriate that this dark time in our history be part of the war museum. Every one of us needs to remember that our actions as soldiers have consequences that reach far, far beyond our immediate lives. Those paintings serve as a warning to any others who think it might be fun to beat a prisoner to death. They serve notice that to be a Canadian soldier is to adhere to an exceptionally high standard of conduct - and that we don't just pay lip service to that.

I understand that this won't be a particularly popular opinion... but it is the one I hold.

DG

 

[Jungle]

Those sonsofbitches beat a kid to death...

... those stupid bastards nearly undid it all at a stroke.

I understand that this won't be a particularly popular opinion... but it is the one I hold.

This thread is about the Cdn War Museum, there are other threads to discuss the actions of the CAR in Somalia, the Somalia inquiry, and the disbandment of the Regt.
Do you realise that former members of the CAR went on to serve in other units, and on missions around the world. The R22R Para Coy has served on Ops from Haiti to Indonesia, Afghanistan included, since the disbandment. Some are the same Soldiers you say are stupid bastards who were in Somalia...

Now, you can go fuck yourself... this won't be a particularly popular opinion... but it is the one I hold.

 

[KevinB]

DG - nice wide brush your using  :
Your attitude is entirely what is wrong with the CF, and the Canadian people in general.  You think it was RIGHT to disband a regiment based on the actions of specifically two and realistically 8 at the most soliders.  I guess society was truly at fault maybe we should disband Canada :-*.  Part of responsibility is finding out who was responsible and punishing them - not everyone else.  Besides the coverup crap that went on afterwards was not of the doing of the CAR, but the chain of command (and specifically a few senior airforce officers - maybe we shoudl disband pilots since a few where unethical?)

 

[Ranman]

*sigh*

I'm about to lose some friends, I guess, but leadership and morality isn't a popularity contest.

Speaking as someone who was in the Regs during the time when that whole Somalia thing happened, I think the decision to disband the Airborne Regiment was entirely appropriate and went a long, LONG way to restoring the lost honour of the CF in general.

Those sonsofbitches beat a kid to death - a kid who should have been under our protection. That's the whole Canadian military ethos - we protect those who cannot protect themselves. Having the Canadians show up means that the bad things are going to stop (or at least slow down) because the Canadians are (at least by reputation) viturous and honourable and incorruptable, and have the moral courage to do what is *right* over what is easy or profitable.

That is the reputation that generations of Canadian soldiers fought and died to establish. It is, perhaps, our single greatest asset as a nation. And those stupid bastards nearly undid it all at a stroke.

By disbanding the Airborne - an unquestionalbly heavy-handed action - we sent the message to both other nations and to our own people that this sort of behaviour was absolutely not representative of how we wanted Canadian troops to behave, and that we would take drastic action against any unit that allowed this sort of thing to take place.

The actual actions were the result of a few individuals, but the consequences resonated throughout the country and the entire world. Ultimately, it was a failure of leadership at all levels, and dire consequences resulted. It took tremendous courage and resolve to respond with something big enough to set things right.

Before the disbanding of the Airborne, it was "Well, I guess the Canadians aren't so pure after all". After the disbanding of the Airborne, it was "Holy crap! The Canadians take the conduct of their soldiers way more seriously than we ever thought!"

The shame of it is that so many good soldiers had to be punished for the actions of a few bad apples, but at the end of the day, the punishment did what it was supposed to do and restored the lost honour of all of us. That, to me, made it worth the cost.

And it is entirely right and appropriate that this dark time in our history be part of the war museum. Every one of us needs to remember that our actions as soldiers have consequences that reach far, far beyond our immediate lives. Those paintings serve as a warning to any others who think it might be fun to beat a prisoner to death. They serve notice that to be a Canadian soldier is to adhere to an exceptionally high standard of conduct - and that we don't just pay lip service to that.

I understand that this won't be a particularly popular opinion... but it is the one I hold.

DG

I always looked at the disbanding of the Airborne Regiment as an opportunity for the Canadian goverment to save money.

As far a "restored the lost honour" other countries don't care or even know that the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded.

The first step in restoring lost honour would not be in disbanding an elite Regiment. It would be discontinuing the use of weekend warriors as regular forces and buy some modern equipment.

In fact in the Gulf war Canadian troops were deemed unfit for combat and were given prisoner guarding duties. You didn't hear the goverment sharing this with the public did you?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sorry Infanteer, I want public clarification on this point. We cab split it if we have to.

The first step in restoring lost honour would not be in disbanding an elite Regiment. It would be discontinuing the use of weekend warriors as regular forces and buy some modern equipment.

So, the normal connotation of "weekend warrior" is a Reservist. What is not honourable, being a Reservist or being an augumentee to the Regs? How would the elimination of either restore "lost honour"? Please explain what you think "lost honour" is and why it applies to Reservists.

 

[Ranman]

I worked with Reservist on exercise. They were pityfull. You constantly have to yell at them to keep up. They are in no way at reg force levels in fitness or training.

I even seen one run away from a 50 CAL machine gun when it cooked off.

I had one that didn't even do his GMT but still was posted to a reg force exercise.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I worked with Reservist on exercise. They were pityfull. You constantly have to yell at them to keep up. They are in no way at reg force levels in fitness or training.

I even seen one run away from a 50 CAL machine gun when it cooked off.

I had one that didn't even do his GMT but still was posted to a reg force exercise.

Yet another 'argument' that we have done over and over and over again with a consistent lack of 'communication' much less comprehension.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I worked with Reservist on exercise. They were pityfull. You constantly have to yell at them to keep up. They are in no way at reg force levels in fitness or training.

I even seen one run away from a 50 CAL machine gun when it cooked off.

I had one that didn't even do his GMT but still was posted to a reg force exercise.

: I've got my answer, I thought he might've had something relevant or earth shattering to say. I can now discount and ignore everything Ranman has to say from this point forward. Just another bitter ex kindda guy, living twenty years in the past, with selective memory and inflated self worth. :boring:

OK, thanks Infanteer, for your indulgence. Back to the regularly scheduled programming and feel free to erase anything not pertaining to the thread.

 

[Ranman]

: I've got my answer, I thought he might've had something relevant or earth shattering to say. I can now discount and ignore everything Ranman has to say from this point forward. Just another bitter ex kindda guy, living twenty years in the past, with selective memory and inflated self worth. :boring:

OK, thanks Infanteer, for your indulgence. Back to the regularly scheduled programming and feel free to erase anything not pertaining to the thread.

Ok Captain Forum! Carry on! 

 

[the 48th regulator]

I worked with Reservist on exercise. They were pityfull. You constantly have to yell at them to keep up. They are in no way at reg force levels in fitness or training.

I even seen one run away from a 50 CAL machine gun when it cooked off.

I had one that didn't even do his GMT but still was posted to a reg force exercise.

Ah yes,

another reg force vs res battle,

Ok Ranman, let us hear you be, yet another, one who has the meltdown with a rant about reservists.

dileas

tess

 

[1feral1]

I worked with Reservist on exercise. They were pityfull. You constantly have to yell at them to keep up. They are in no way at reg force levels in fitness or training.

I even seen one run away from a 50 CAL machine gun when it cooked off.

I had one that didn't even do his GMT but still was posted to a reg force exercise.

Hey Ranman whats up with the Reserve bashing? I have met just as many dickheads and useless people in both the regs and reserves, and thats in TWO armies!

Wes

 

[Ranman]

Hey Ranman whats up with the Reserve bashing? I have met just as many dickheads and useless people in both the regs and reserves, and thats in TWO armies!

Wes

I wasn't "bashing" I was just stating what I saw. I wouldn't call them "dickheads" either...thats just plain rude. I just didn't see the young men at the high standard as the reg force men.

 

[1feral1]

One gets about 70 trg days/yr (not including annual summer trg), and with that they have to be used as effective as ever. As for your bit about an un-trg'd soldier going on to an ex, would that not fall on the incompetance of the RSS trg WO, ot RSS orderly room staff, so who's fault is that, not that poor militia guy's. I do agree that it was wrong to have him there, as what about duty of care for example, but tarring the whole Reserve system is not fair. Only trained qualified troops should be allowed on exercises.

Young soldiers reg or reserve, are just as eager to train and get invloved in unit activities as each other's component will allow. There will always be the annamocity between them, thats just how it is. Thats fine, its good for competition and esprit du corps. As I said before the trg days alloted have to be used accordingly and no time should be unnecessarily wasted. Good realistic training is not only benifical to the soldier, but the unit too, as it ensures retainment of most serious reservists, and is a good recruitng tool too.

Thats why for UN work up trg for example (at least in 1994), there is/was a 90 day window to come up to standard, and don't forget the militia soldier while working side by side with his reg force counterpart on this work up trg is getting less pay for doing it until his CL C pay comes thru just prior to deployment. He is just as dedicated if not more, as he is there as a volunteer, and not because he has to be. Good soldiers are only as good as their quality and depth of training, this along with a decent CTP and good DS is what a 'good soldier makes' regardless of their component.

Regards,

Wes

 

[Pikache]

This thread is ghey. Thread closed.