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An Ammunition Anomaly

Old Sweat

Army.ca Fixture
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Fallen Comrade
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The following was received from a friend who is the honorary lieutenant colonel of the 42nd Field Regiment RCA. Can anyone provide some information about this very odd round?

"I have attached a picture of a curious item in our 42nd Fd Regt (L&R Scot) RCA Regimental Museum.  It is a six pounder Atk cartridge case necked down to take a 2 pdr Atk round.  The necking down is smooth, not done by an amateur but I can think of no explanation for it.  I did consider the unlikely possibility that someone might have experimented at one time with a barrel inset that would allow sub-calibre training but that can’t be the answer in my opinion, the ballistics, both interior and exterior would not work.  In fact, unless a reduced charge was in the cartridge case the results would have been catastrophic and the round would almost certainly have been unstable in flight.  All of this without the issue of the cost involved.  Have either of you an explanation for this?"

The attachment is at: IMG 2082.JPG
 
I could not see the picture. But is it possible it came from the upgraded 2pdr that the British introduced later in WW2?
 
Properly speaking, the unit is 1 AD(the L&R Scots) as the name change to 42 Fd Regt has not been officially made yet.

 
Old Sweat said:
did consider the unlikely possibility that someone might have experimented at one time with a barrel inset that would allow sub-calibre training but that can’t be the answer in my opinion, the ballistics, both interior and exterior would not work.  In fact, unless a

50 cal doesnt have the same ammo ballistics as 105 hesh,but the Armd corp used it strapped to the top of the main gun for simulation.

(I know nothing of arty...straying far here...and with no pic)

Where the ammo is tapered down could it be for use in a direct fire emergency role on armd vehicles?Maybe the taper is to produce more velocity of a smaller projectile/sabot? ???

Just a thought.
 
The challenge is that the round is about the same size and weight as the standard 6-pounder round, but only has a 2-pounder projectile. Even if a hugely increased velocity could have been achieved, I doubt that this was an effective tactical innovation.

There had been a project that used a tapering barrel on the 2-pounder, but the gun was being phased out at the time or shortly later. It would have been a winner in 1940-1941, but was less of an asset after that. This was something different; in the picture a very tiny round sits on a large cartridge case.

I wonder if it was developed to enable troops to train with a sub-calibre device on ranges that were too restricted for standard service ammunition.
 
Is there any supporting evidence that this was a production round?  What is the possibility that it was just a workshop training experiment?

"Hey Bob, I bet you I can neck this casing down to take that shell ...."
"No way, I bet you a beer that you can't."
 
The individual who raised the query with me was a classmate of mine on both officer training and the Instructor in Gunnery course. He would have researched the item as carefully and thoroughly as possible before asking. While I can't say for sure, I suggest that the documentation was sketchy at best.
 
Thanks loads. Message passed on to the originator.
 
"antitank theory useful for new readers"

Man I'm good.Who needs google!
 
X-mo-1979 said:
"antitank theory useful for new readers"

Man I'm good.Who needs google!

Well not that good actually ;)  ;D , 
50 cal doesnt have the same ammo ballistics as 105 hesh,but the Armd corp used it strapped to the top of the main gun for simulation.

I've never heard of us mounting a .50 on the main. I'd like to see something on that. IF you're talking about the ranging gun............

The .50 wasn't strapped to the top of the main gun. It was used on Centurion and called the ranging gun. For ranging and not simulation. The ranging gun, had a shortened barrel and had the same trajectory as the 105. It was mounted in the mantlet and slaved to the main. The range was applied in the sight, and a three round burst, controlled by solenoid, was fired. When two strikes on target were observed the main gun was fired and the strike would occur at the same spot (or very close). A poor man's lazer sight if you will. Save a lot of main gun ammo and was pretty quick when you had the hang of it.
 
Colin P said:
A .50cal spotting gun was also used on the 106mm RR

- Yup, the M8C, 12.7mm X 77mm cartridge case. 
- 'Normal' fifty cal has a 12.7mm X 99mm cartridge case. This was also the Cartrige case size used for the Ranging Machine Gun (RMG) on the Centurian and Chieftain tanks.
 
recceguy said:
Well not that good actually ;)  ;D , 
I've never heard of us mounting a .50 on the main. I'd like to see something on that. IF you're talking about the ranging gun............

The .50 wasn't strapped to the top of the main gun. It was used on Centurion and called the ranging gun. For ranging and not simulation. The ranging gun, had a shortened barrel and had the same trajectory as the 105. It was mounted in the mantlet and slaved to the main. The range was applied in the sight, and a three round burst, controlled by solenoid, was fired. When two strikes on target were observed the main gun was fired and the strike would occur at the same spot (or very close). A poor man's lazer sight if you will. Save a lot of main gun ammo and was pretty quick when you had the hang of it.

Yeah I heard of the ranging thing of the days of lore.But I got pic (in one of my online groups) of a leopard with a 50 mounted on top of the main gun.And someone sitting on top of the turret....that guy told me it was a short lived thing to save main gun ammo.

Looking for info

WAIT OUT! ;D
 
It is a six pounder Atk cartridge case necked down to take a 2 pdr Atk round.

Old Sweat-

I used to be the Museum Officer at that fine Regiment- and I have to say that I do not remember that item in the collection.  Relatively recent donation?

I'll drop you a PM sometime- There are some really fine items in that museum.  I often marveled at how some of it had survived the passage of time.

Cheers,

SKT
 
X-mo-1979 said:
Yeah I heard of the ranging thing of the days of lore.But I got pic (in one of my online groups) of a leopard with a 50 mounted on top of the main gun.And someone sitting on top of the turret....that guy told me it was a short lived thing to save main gun ammo.
Looking for info

WAIT OUT! ;D

Could be. Just never heard of it. We used to have a stripped FN with a .22 subcal unit in it. The was on a bracket used in the indoor miniature range, to shoot at little rubber tanks and trucks. The rifle operator stood outside the turret and applied the range and stuff. This was on Centurion. I was out of tanks before we got the Leopards.
 
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