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Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

Humphrey Bogart

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Can't argue against that.



This provides a perverse incentive to starve the institution as you punish your people financially for moving them to a school.

If you want to be more capitalist, find a way to add performance bonuses to annual pay. :cool:
Performance bonuses at the school perhaps? Perhaps based on a scorecard system?

Instructor = scorecard with input from students, support staff and management

Support staff = scorecard from instructors and management

My wife receives a semi-annual performance bonus that is entirely based on her outputs and customer satisfaction reviews.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Because compared to most Canadians, some CAF salaries, particularly for officers, are very, very good.

That isn’t a strong argument foundation. Most Canadians don’t get relocated against their will to posting locations like I am subject to. I had a posting message in 2019 (out of geo), 2020 (same gel location) and 2021 (out of geo). Should they take away posting allowances too because “most Canadians” don’t get them?

At a certain point, subsidizing housing stops being sufficiently necessary as to be defensible to the public. A LCol making $131k is in a very different situation than a MCpl making less than half of that.

A housing benefit is a reasonable thing to be means tested, IMO.

PLD is not just a housing benefit, though. It’s not about being necessary, it’s about offsetting the COL when the government forces you and your family to relocate somewhere that creates a disadvantage. That disadvantage doesn’t go away at the +2 year point or on the mbrs next promotion.

7B8858F6-BC5A-4E9F-BE3C-FEB19378B248.jpegB60C1F7C-D00E-4343-AA58-DDF4BDF95EE7.jpeg
 

dimsum

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If you want to be more capitalist, find a way to add performance bonuses to annual pay. :cool:
So basically what the RCAF is trying out right now with Pilots and SAR Techs, and looking eventually at all RCAF-managed trades.
 

Eye In The Sky

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The problem with using rank cut offs for PLD is by doing this, you are assisting the QOL of some and the opposite to other. Using Sgt and WO as a comparison; a Standard Pay PI4 Sgt would actually make more total /month with PLD than a Standard Pay Cat WO in Victoria.

That seems just and fair to people?

Additionally, Spec 1 Sgt pay is comparable to Standard WOs. Spec 2 Sgt is higher.

Now consider what a Cpl-Sgt SAR Tech makes compared me as a Spec 1 WO.

How about a Medical Officer Capt, or Pilot Capt
Compared to a GSO Maj?

It shouldn’t take anyone long to see the solution isn’t rank based. 5D1928B6-19E2-4724-8922-FC20F3E0CB12.pngA19D62E7-D3C3-44F7-A747-25939C56763C.jpeg
 
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dapaterson

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The CAF is not in the business of being a bank and administering mortgages. But are you suggesting that, as a co-owner of the house, the CAF would receive a proportionate share of the increase in equity when the house sells?
 

Stoker

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The CAF is not in the business of being a bank and administering mortgages. But are you suggesting that, as a co-owner of the house, the CAF would receive a proportionate share of the increase in equity when the house sells?
Perhaps they should be or bring back a revamped first time home buyers to make it easier to buy a home.
 

Westcoast80

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I agree with the poster's above, wages have been frozen in the military since the mid 2000s. The few increases that we recieve equal about a hundred dollars a month after tax. I actually took a large pay cut by being promoted to the next rank. I was at a unit with feild pay and pld and took a posting last summer to a school. Worst decision for us to move. It's nit a great morale booster to get promoted in rank and take a pay cut. lost all benefits pld, feild pay, higher taxes, and am completely priced out of this market. It felt more like a demotion than a promotion. We went from living an average lifestyle to here we're barely able to survive, and she is working more, but we still had to cut all extra ctivites for our kids. We were lucky to get a pmq, but it's still over priced for what it is. My wife can clear more money a month by being a server at Boston Pizza part time during the summer months. The trade I work in is also very slow for promotions, no real pay incentives for cpls or Jack's. Also, getting promoted only matters if your bosses like you enough, or decide to write you up well. It makes no difference how competent you are on the job.
 
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Westcoast80

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Sure 55000 a year might have been great money in 2006 when minimum wage was 8.00 a hour, and qs were 650 a month, but in 2021 its not even a livable wage in Ontario or B.C. There used to be postings like Shilio, Gagetown, Valcartier that had cheaper Qs until above 7 years ago. This at least gave the Cpls or privates some Chance at saving money for a house or retirement.
 

Fabius

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I don’t think this is merely a CAF problem. It’s likely a lot of problems rolled into one. Some items to consider:
1. According to Stats Canada Average income in 2021 was around $55,000.
2. Average family income after tax in 2021 was around $66,000.
3. Only around 15% of Canadians earned incomes over $100,000 in 2021.

I don’t think this is the CAF being miserly nor undervaluing the worth of its members, junior members in particular. I say that while fully accepting that items like PLD, field pay etc have issues and are not solving the problems they are meant too.

This is an affordablity problem that affects the country and has resulted from a multitude of issues that we the CAF are now dealing with.
 

rmc_wannabe

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I don’t think this is merely a CAF problem. It’s likely a lot of problems rolled into one. Some items to consider:
1. According to Stats Canada Average income in 2021 was around $55,000.
2. Average family income after tax in 2021 was around $66,000.
3. Only around 15% of Canadians earned incomes over $100,000 in 2021.
I would recommend against using pandemic figures as realistic. 2020-2022 has been an anomaly.

I don’t think this is the CAF being miserly nor undervaluing the worth of its members, junior members in particular. I say that while fully accepting that items like PLD, field pay etc have issues and are not solving the problems they are meant too.
Speak to Techs, MPs, Aircrew, or other "Spec" trades and see how miserly the CAF is compared to how the GoC pays equivalent trades within the other departments/PS.

Our Base Pay is tied to PSAC, which represents a lot of clerical, non-tech staff. Spec Pay is a percentage higher than that Base Pay. My equivalent PS job is IT-3, which falls within PIPSC. They negotiate at a much higher rate than I would ever receive as a Spec 1 because of this.

Pinching pennies is something the CAF does with fervor, and we get (or lose) what we pay (or don't pay) for.

This is an affordablity problem that affects the country and has resulted from a multitude of issues that we the CAF are now dealing with.
Big hand map problems are a convenient scapegoat for small hand solutions not being implemented. The CAF/DND will always lament national or global trends if it means they can put it off another FY. Instead of finding immediate solutions or temp fixes, they would rather shove their heads in the sand and hope the problem fixes itself.
 
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Quirky

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Speak to Techs, MPs, Aircrew, or other "Spec" trades and see how miserly the CAF is compared to how the GoC pays equivalent trades within the other departments/PS.

I don’t know where these $80k+ aircraft maintenance or management jobs exist in the airlines. I want nothing to do with aircraft once I’m done with the RCAF.
 

Westcoast80

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The problem now is that it of military are leaving to take the non military jobs on base. They are often paid better, have overtime,,and don't have to deal with extra stressful situations like going in the field, p.ts test postings, postings and a crappy boss who decides not to write you up as a god, therefore delaying your promotion for three years. You may be the most competent on your job, but can go nowhere. The civilians on base often have better work life balance like working from home half time. I know every ex military I've talked to who released for a civilian job working on base said it was the best decision they ever made, and quality of life improved.
 

dapaterson

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A thought on benefits: Over a 25 year career, a Reg F CAF member will receive 120 weeks of annual leave. (This ignores all other sorts of leave - annual only).

A member of the PA group will receive 102 weeks of annual over the same time.

In a quest for "equality" will we reduce annual leave entitlements?
 

rmc_wannabe

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A thought on benefits: Over a 25 year career, a Reg F CAF member will receive 120 weeks of annual leave. (This ignores all other sorts of leave - annual only).

A member of the PA group will receive 102 weeks of annual over the same time.

In a quest for "equality" will we reduce annual leave entitlements?
Honestly, if we want equality with the PS, we should be able to CB directly with the GoC. Until then, there will only be disparity in anything we receive.

But for now, we want CAF members to do a job that pays no overtime, forces relocation based on arbitrary "needs of the service", provides no safety net or QoL guarantees for those forced moves, and yet are shocked to have both a recruitment and retention problem...

It's more than just people bitching about equality; it's ensuring a fair deal for what's being asked. Service before self doesn't put a roof over the head, nor food on the table.
 

Quirky

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I think implying a new system where promotions where based on a how well you can actually do your job , rather than outdated favoritism write ups we still have e today, would have a better impact on c.fs morale.

I’ve seen awesome techs promoted into management positions hate their life and be below average leaders. I’ve also seen awesome leaders who were poor mechanics. Being competent in your trade does not mean you’ll be a good manager.
 

Halifax Tar

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A thought on benefits: Over a 25 year career, a Reg F CAF member will receive 120 weeks of annual leave. (This ignores all other sorts of leave - annual only).

A member of the PA group will receive 102 weeks of annual over the same time.

In a quest for "equality" will we reduce annual leave entitlements?

I can see what youre getting at but that's a bit disingenuous the PS can also go into the hole a full years leave, they can bank leave and they can take overtime compensation as leave. They also have a slew of other types of leave to take; and they can take half and quarter or less days leave as well.

Also that ability to work compressed work weeks and adjusted schedule is pretty sweet.

For the sake of 18 weeks the GoC is getting a bargain.

I would love to see PSAC bargain for our post deployment leave.
 
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Oldarmyguy77

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We have a few ex military working on base at our unit. They basically do the same job, and only need to show up in person at work twice a month. I don't think any of them regret releasing from the cf.
 
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