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Alleged police attack may nix soldier's Afghan tour

Eye In The Sky

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3-4 HARD knee strikes?  I've done MMA and fuck, those looked pretty harsh to me.  Glad I wasn't on the other end of them.  I'd say the cops are lucky a bunch of army guys didn't see that and pouond them all into the pavement. 

This one isn't black and white.  Sweets does have trouble with army guys from time to time.  Add to that, university students too.  Some doorman IDd the Sir wrongfully as a troublemaker from a few weeks ago (meaning to me, they thought he was barred).  The whole incident is central to a wrong call by the doorman.  Add some booze to the equation.  You have an Army Officer, probably half a jag on, being wrongfully IDd (and knows he is right), probably thrown out of the bar.  Heated discussion happens, cops are called and told "we have some army guy giving us shit".  Cops in Freddy are used to this (I am remembeing the summer in the mid-90s or so when the Army basically cleaned The Hilltop one Tuesday night after some doormen thru a soldier down the stairs.).  Now everyone's adrenalin is pumpin'.  The bouncers made the call on the wrong guy though, which caused it all.

It is a messy one, but I think the cop who delivered the MULTIPLE knee strikes is going to be the one left without a chair when the music stops on this one.  If it were me on the ground in similar circumstances, I be asking my lawyer about assault charges on the cop.
 

chris_log

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Video's don't always tell the whole story. That being said, having been on the 'other' side (albeit not as a cop) I can tell you that it ain't easy to subdue someone (even with 2-3 people doing it) who is ticked off, a bit drunk and aggressive. Knee strikes are a very effective way of getting someone out of the fight.

The only reason this received any media attention at all (soldiers are good at making trouble in bars, and get tossed around regularily) is because this guy went to a reporter about it.

Edit: I watched the video again and caught on to something, if you notice in the first few seconds the cops are grabbing his arm and he keeps yanking it back underneath him. If you feel you are being unjustly arrested and want to fight back...well, give 'er (this guy obviously did). But be prepared for the results, the police will ALWAYS win the initial fight. Always.

I understand the desire to 'circle the wagons' to protect one of our own. But, had this been a non-military guy we would all be saying that 'he should have just done what he was told' and 'he probably deserved it'. It's only because he's one of ours that we now questions the police actions. The Freddie police have lots of experience dealing with army guys, and to be honest, we are terrible at bars. As a rule soldiers (yes, even today) like to get into trouble at bars. I'm sure the MP's here can attest to that.

The guy was resisiting arrest and, frankly, deserved the knees (although straight to the back...thats brutal).

And if it makes anyone feel better, I took down an off-duty cop one night at work...hard. So we're even now.  ;)
 

J.J

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We all cringe when members of the public judge actions (out of context) by trained soldiers, under stressful conditions. It always fascinates me that these kinds of threads get as much traffic as they do, on here. Just sayin
You know Muskrat you are cannot be more right. I hear bitching and moaning on here about the public judging your actions while you do your job. Nothing is more infuriating or amateur to Monday morning quarterback someones else's action when you don't know the job or when you do not have the complete story.
"I'd say the cops are lucky a bunch of army guys didn't see that and pouond them all into the pavement".
Some people are seeming to advocate the next time you the see an member of the military getting arrested other members should swarm the cops. The next thing you would read is several army guys getting shot/tased etc because of their actions.
Knee strikes are taught universally in all aspects of Law Enforcement Defensive Tactics training. It can be used as a distraction technique or as a form of pain compliance.
The moral of the story is if you are given a command by an Law Enforcement Officer you comply and when things have calmed down you explain your side. If the soldier was innocent and had done nothing as he claimed, he would be released and minus a few injuries.

Piper,
And if it makes anyone feel better, I took down an off-duty cop one night at work...hard. So we're even now.
 
Did it make you feel like a man or what? In this thread you were sounding reasonable and responsible then you fall back to your regular ole self and say this asinine statement. It was good to see the same Piper we know come out...
 

Eye In The Sky

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WR said:
Some people are seeming to advocate the next time you the see an member of the military getting arrested other members should swarm the cops. The next thing you would read is several army guys getting shot/tased etc because of their actions.

I am not advocating it, but soldiers are loyal, right?  If you see a superior (that you respect and have alot of time for) being what you percieve (especially while on the piss) as being attacked, someone is likely to "act".  Soldiers usually travel in groups in F-town, from my time there.  Do the math.  I am not advocating, if thats the way it came across.

Knee strikes are taught universally in all aspects of Law Enforcement Defensive Tactics training. It can be used as a distraction technique or as a form of pain compliance.  The moral of the story is if you are given a command by an Law Enforcement Officer you comply and when things have calmed down you explain your side. If the soldier was innocent and had done nothing as he claimed, he would be released and minus a few injuries.

I don't think there is any indication, and it wasn't obvious on the video, that the accused/CF Officer was "struggling". 

My moral of the story...if you are going to knee people repeatedly when it isn't warranted (say, like when there is one suspect on the ground and several officers on top of him), be prepared to be called on it and yes, be prepared for someone to haul out a "gadget" and film you. 

This all started with a mistaken ID by a bouncer, yet I don't see you pointing the finger that way, you just want to defend the actions of the cops.  Isn't that being alittle selective?  The CF Officer who was kicked out and then arrested was NOT the guy they said he was. 

Now, I am not and never was a LEO, but I don't think you have to be to have an opinion, do you?  8)

The bouncers screwed up by fingering the wrong guy, the CF Officer probably should have just left Sweets and went for a pint at Dolans or something, and the cop shouldn't have knee'd him multiple times.  But...in the end, the CF Officer was wrongly ID'd by the bar staff, and thats what started it all.
 

J.J

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What I do see is someone who is not complying with what he is being told. If you look at the very beginning of the tape what you do see is someone on his back reaching up for the cop. The cop then is giving him commands, for which he is not complying with in the least. The knee's I believe were necessary. If the knee's were placed in the centre of the back along the spine, that is unnecessary, but with the struggle and someone twisting it is very very difficult to have surgical precision.
I am not advocating it, but soldiers are loyal, right?  If you see a superior (that you respect and have alot of time for) being what you perceive (especially while on the piss) as being attacked, someone is likely to "act".  Soldiers usually travel in groups in F-town, from my time there.  Do the math.  I am not advocating, if thats the way it came across
If they act like that, maybe they have issues while drinking and should abstain from it. If you cannot act in a responsible adult manner when drinking, you shouldn't drink....just sayin
This all started with a mistaken ID by a bouncer, yet I don't see you pointing the finger that way, you just want to defend the actions of the cops.  Isn't that being alittle selective?  The CF Officer who was kicked out and then arrested was NOT the guy they said he was. 
What do you expect in the heat of the moment? A sworn statement taken by a notary? A makeshift courtroom in the street? We get incorrect information or out right lies on a regular basis. What a responsible person does is listen to what they are being asked of and comply with what you are told.
 

Eye In The Sky

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WR said:
What I do see is someone who is not complying with what he is being told. If you look at the very beginning of the tape what you do see is someone on his back reaching up for the cop. The cop then is giving him commands, for which he is not complying with in the least. The knee's I believe were necessary. If the knee's were placed in the centre of the back along the spine, that is unnecessary, but with the struggle and someone twisting it is very very difficult to have surgical precision.

See, now I thought it looked like he was putting his left arm "arm and back" ie. complying, offering the arm to be cuffed.  *shrugs* 

If they act like that, maybe they have issues while drinking and should abstain from it. If you cannot act in a responsible adult manner when drinking, you shouldn't drink....just sayin

I've seen similar things like that before, and at the bar in question...thats what made me think of it.  Troops out on the piss, more booze than brain...

What do you expect in the heat of the moment? A sworn statement taken by a notary? A makeshift courtroom in the street? We get incorrect information or out right lies on a regular basis. What a responsible person does is listen to what they are being asked of and comply with what you are told.

Either I wrote the point poorly in my post, or you mis-read it...I wasn't saying anything about the cops at all, just pointing out the fact that the whole thing stems from a mistake on the bar staff's part.

Having been a bouncer before, I know the drill when another doorman comes up to you and says  "hey that guy is barred".  You might not have two clues who he is, if he is barred, you take the word of the other guy.

I've also tossed people out who tried to smash the doors, etc after, being all full of liquid-stupid, had a go with them until the cops arrived and all that stuff.  I've seen people resisting and struggling before and, from my experience, it was always pretty obvious.

I also admit NONE of that makes me an expert, just another guy who wasn't there with an opinion.  :D
 

Kat Stevens

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Ever been falsely accused of something?  What was your reaction?  Ever been swarmed by three guys all yelling at you to stop resisting, even when you really aren't?  What was your reaction?  Fight or flight is an automatic response, and once the situation escalates, you're just along for the ride.  And drinking responsibly is easy enough, but one of the first things booze effects is your decision making ability, whether you're arsefaced or not.  I'm not making excuses for the guy, but until you've got three goons piled on in the real world, not a training exercise, you'll never know what was going on in his head.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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WTF didn't people understand about my post where I said the moment he pulled his arms under him he is to be treated like he's armed?

Next time any of you do an IED course ask if pushing on the little button is an acceptable way to test if the device is explosive or not..................clowns.
 

Haggis

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Just to set the record straight a bit.  This soldier is a Van Doo Pte, not an officer, and is on incremental staff at the Infantry School.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Kat Stevens said:
Fell better, butthead?



Nope,................I also explained why we knee in the back when the arms are tucked under, did Piper [and others] read that before his "brutal" comment?
Of course not.

Circle the wagons I guess,.....police intruders into our world. ::)

 

Eye In The Sky

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Nope,................I also explained why we knee in the back when the arms are tucked under, did Piper [and others] read that before his "brutal" comment?
Of course not.

Circle the wagons I guess,.....police intruders into our world. ::)

Not circling the wagons, but...if he had his arms "under" him, would you have to knee "down" and not "right to left"?  I can't see it clearly, but I had thought the guy was on his side and being knee'd in the back.  If his arms were under him, he'd of had to of been on his stomach, meaning his back would be facing up(ish).

(Its a serious question) 
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Eye In The Sky said:
Not circling the wagons, but...if he had his arms "under" him, would you have to knee "down" and not "right to left"?  I can't see it clearly, but I had thought the guy was on his side and being knee'd in the back.  If his arms were under him, he'd of had to of been on his stomach, meaning his back would be facing up(ish).

(Its a serious question) 



Agreed,
And that is why I did this,
Bruce Monkhouse said:
*done correctly*

However once stuff hits the fan *correctly* gives way a lot of the times to *whatever might work*.
 

Garett

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Having lived in Fredericton pretty much all my life and having been in the CF since 1998 in the Fredericton/Gagetown area, there is a bit of tension between the Fredericton City Police and the Army. There have been soldiers garrisoned in Fredericton for a very long time, British and Canadian. When base Gagetown was built, the city council refused to allow officer PMQs to be built within the Fredericton city limits.

Every week there are soldiers in court in Fredericton and Burton for doing stupid shit.  I've seen soldiers act like spoiled, naughty children in downtown Fredericton. Many of them demand to be treated like they are Victoria Cross winners when they have a year or less in the army. If soldiers want to be treated better in Fredericton then they should police themselves better because many of their peers are ruining it for them by getting charged with DUI, assault, drug use, rape, etc..... Too many times I've seen soldiers behaving badly to the point where they are a liability to their unit and their peers don't give a shit.

I've seen police officers intentionally looking for a fight in the downtown bar area. If they find one its usually with someone who is drunk and we all know who comes out on top. Both organizations have their ass-clowns. Overall I still respect them because every day they're on duty they're in danger, we can't say that as soldiers.
 

Occam

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Eye In The Sky said:
Not circling the wagons, but...if he had his arms "under" him, would you have to knee "down" and not "right to left"?  I can't see it clearly, but I had thought the guy was on his side and being knee'd in the back.  If his arms were under him, he'd of had to of been on his stomach, meaning his back would be facing up(ish).

(Its a serious question)

+1.

He was clearly on his side, with his left arm on the bottom and to the front (across his face).  The officer who later delivers the knee shots was holding his right arm, preventing him from rolling onto his stomach.  There is no way in hell anyone could have had reason to believe he was armed.  There was also no way in hell, being on his side, that he'd be able to get his left arm behind him to allow them to cuff him.  The officer delivering the knee blows was clearly doing it in a sideways motion to an individual laying on his side.  If he was trying to push him onto his stomach, he'd never have been able to get knee shots in.  To me, it looks like the cops got him into a position where there was no way that he could comply with their directions, whether he wanted to or not.  The witnesses said the Pte and the constable were talking, and then all of a sudden he's thrown to the ground.

Where I come from, that's assault.  I'll be very surprised, when all is said and done, if there is any evidence that the officer had grounds to go physical with him - based on the witness statements.

I'm usually extremely supportive of the police, but something stinks in this incident.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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I guess you must have got the high definition video?


Occam said:
  There is no way in hell anyone could have had reason to believe he was armed. 

I'm glad the folks I work with would never be so complacent........
 

Kat Stevens

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Circle the wagons I guess,.....police people who dare to question LEO/CO conduct intruders into our world. ::)


See what I did there?


ADDED*  Ultimately, I have no dog in this fight.  I wasn't there, this guy, nor the cops in question are friends of mine.  I have seen first hand the overzealous use of force by cops, in fact our little town is famous for it.  I'll just bow out now.
 

Occam

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
I guess you must have got the high definition video?

It looks clear enough on the video to me.  If he was on his stomach, then he's got the most flexible shoulder joint I've ever seen, to be waving that arm around upwards in the air like he was.

I'm glad the folks I work with would never be so complacent........

He's on his side.  His left shoulder is to the ground, with his arm in front of his face.  Nobody is making any attempt to restrain it, but it's obvious he can't do anything with it either.  His right arm is being held by the cop who later delivers the knee blows.  Where is the threat from some sort of weapon supposed to come from?

If the cop was trying to push him onto his stomach to get him cuffed, please explain how one can be pushing against something and cranking off knee shots at the same time?  The laws of physics say you'd fall flat on your face after the first shot.  To deliver the knee shots and retain balance, you either have to hold him stationary or be pulling him towards you - which would have been trying to pull him onto his back.
 

Roy Harding

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CSI has got nothing on us, does it?

This will all come out in the investigation.  As I said earlier, my inclination (as a former soldier) is to support the soldier in question - at the same time, I have a long and abiding respect for Canadian law officers, not mention a long experience (personal and otherwise) with soldiers on the piss interacting with the local constabulary.

I haven't and won't form an opinion until I know more.


Roy
 
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