All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)

[winds_13]

As far as I can tell, the impact the vaccine mandate had on emergency response times in our town from 31 Oct. to now has been neglible. YMMV

The fire department fired 20 unvaxxed. About half of 1% of the dept.

The unvaxxed had been out of service since late October, and there are always plenty of qualified applicants.

Mariomike, while it is one thing to consider whether or not the employer can manage the loss of staff from a vaccine mandate, the question remains on what supposed benefit it is supposed to produce. In what way does it help protect staff and clients when transmission rates are highest amongst those that are fully vaccinated?

COVID-19 vaccinations data

Graphs and tables showing our progress on getting the COVID-19 vaccine to Ontarians.

covid-19.ontario.ca

There may not have been interruptions in emergency response where you live but in Ottawa a total of 53 paramedics tested positive following a holiday party before Christmas. About 130 paramedic staff were in attendance, or about 1/5 of the services total staff. This is after they had laid off their unvaccinated staff. They were operating within provincial regulations but were arguably being reckless, taking significant risk by holding a large work gathering knowing full well that spread of the Omicron variant was well underway. Maybe they thought the lack of unvaccinated attendees would protect them (the party was at a restaurant, which in Ontario means that unvaccinated individuals could not legally attend)?

COVID-19 tally from paramedics' restaurant party hits 53

The number of Ottawa paramedic staff testing positive for COVID-19 after an off-duty restaurant party climbed to 53 on Tuesday.

ottawacitizen.com

Then, a few weeks later, the Ottawa paramedic service was at "level zero" and calling on ambulances to be dispatched from Gananoque, almost 2 hours away. The manning shortage was not the result of the vaccine mandate, but rather from vaccinated paramedics becoming infected.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/level-zero-paramedic-gananoque-call-1.6307660

It is one thing to suggest that the emergency services can shoulder the loss of staff due to vaccine mandates, it is a completely different thing to suggest that such mandates have had any meaningful, positive impact on protecting staff and clients from infection. Supposedly the unvaccinated staff are all selfish and uncaring of others safety and the vaccinated staff, that attended this 130-person work event, are all shining examples of duty before self during a pandemic.

 

[mariomike]

That’s good to hear. Plenty of qualified and willing applicants can fill the vacancies.

Yes it was.

As for the Ottawa paramedics who went to a bar, they have already been well scolded on here.

Of all the others who went to bars that night across Ontario, they seem to be the only ones singled out for scolding.

 

[winds_13]

Mariomike, you never addressed my question about what good has supposedly come of the workplace vaccine mandates. You've previously compared such mandates to "seatbelt mandates", and suggested anyone that is not pro-mandate is an undesirable "anti-vaxxer". If the workplace mandates were intended to protect staff and clients from infection, exactly how much risk was reduced? Does the data suggest that the current rates of infection are lower than if those staff members had not been let go?

Yes, the Ottawa paramedics have been scolded on here, so have the minority of Canadians who remain unvaccinated... repeatedly, and with furor.

 

[brihard]

Mariomike, you never addressed my question about what good has supposedly come of the workplace vaccine mandates. You've previously compared such mandates to "seatbelt mandates", and suggested anyone that is not pro-mandate is an undesirable "anti-vaxxer". If the workplace mandates were intended to protect staff and clients from infection, exactly how much risk was reduced? Does the data suggest that the current rates of infection are lower than if those staff members had not been let go?

Yes, the Ottawa paramedics have been scolded on here, so have the minority of Canadians who remain unvaccinated... repeatedly, and with furor.

There is compelling evidence that the vaccine also significantly reduces transmissibility, even if it doesn’t eliminate it completely. This would suggest that it would be a tangible contributor to occupational health and safety.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2106757

 

[Jarnhamar]

As for the Ottawa paramedics who went to a bar, they have already been well scolded on here.

And there hasn't been a covid19 outbreak among the paramedics since. Mission accomplished.

 

[winds_13]

There is compelling evidence that the vaccine also significantly reduces transmissibility, even if it doesn’t eliminate it completely. This would suggest that it would be a tangible contributor to occupational health and safety.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2106757

Brihard, there is also evidence from the same period, in Britain, that the reduced rates of transmissibility experienced after the vaccine significantly waned after only a few months post vaccination... to the point of becoming negligible.

DEFINE_ME

Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home

Vaccinated people are catching and then spreading the virus to those they live with, UK study finds.

www.bbc.com

After reviewing all of the data at the time, the U.K. decided that they were not going forward with their planned vaccine passport system.

As linked in one of my previous posts today, transmissibility rates are now highest amongst vaccinated persons, at least in Ontario (according to the governments own data).

 

[brihard]

Brihard, there is also evidence from the same period, in Britain, that the reduced rates of transmissibility experienced after the vaccine significantly waned after only a few months post vaccination... to the point of becoming negligible.

DEFINE_ME

Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home

Vaccinated people are catching and then spreading the virus to those they live with, UK study finds.

www.bbc.com

After reviewing all of the data at the time, the U.K. decided that they were not going forward with their planned vaccine passport system.

As linked in one of my previous posts today, transmissibility rates are now highest amongst vaccinated persons, at least in Ontario (according to the governments own data).

I’m not in a position to do an extensive literature review, but I’m also not making any of this policy. I’m just a worker bee who follows it. I did a cursory check and found that there does seem to be some evidence.

Given how brutally limited our province’s testing is, I’m immediately skeptical of any data coming out of Ontario that purports to offer answers to that, due to massive sample bias. I’m much more inclined to look at what’s coming out of reputable medical journals.

 

[mariomike]

For people incessently complaining about employment mandates,

You have the full ability to consent to the vaccine or not. There will simply be employment consequences if you don’t. You’re free to seek other work elsewhere.

 

[suffolkowner]

The COVID RNA vaccines have had significantly better efficacy than the flu shot tends to. The amount of research this has caused to be put into RNA vaccines is going to be a game changer in immunology post-COVID once they have time to really work at other applications.

I think people may have some seriously high expectations of what the vaccination can achieve.

From my readings

vaccine efficacy is less for the variants than for original strain
vaccine efficacy decreases over relatively short time but still highly effective against hospitalizations or severe impacts
circulating antibodies decrease relatively rapidly in vaccinated versus naturally infected
circulated antibodies decrease relatively rapidly versus other vaccinations eg MMR

 

[brihard]

I think people may have some seriously high expectations of what the vaccination can achieve.

From my readings

vaccine efficacy is less for the variants than for original strain
vaccine efficacy decreases over relatively short time but still highly effective against hospitalizations or severe impacts
circulating antibodies decrease relatively rapidly in vaccinated versus naturally infected
circulated antibodies decrease relatively rapidly versus other vaccinations eg MMR

Sure. Successful vaccines for a coronavirus are still groundbreaking, though. That’s new. Point I’m making is the shitload of money and research going into RNA for COVID is going to probably pay dividends elsewhere.

 

[mariomike]

And there hasn't been a covid19 outbreak among the paramedics since. Mission accomplished.

Self-righteous indignation on the internet doesn't keep people out of bars.

 

[MilEME09]

Sure. Successful vaccines for a coronavirus are still groundbreaking, though. That’s new. Point I’m making is the shitload of money and research going into RNA for COVID is going to probably pay dividends elsewhere.

they just announced stage one trials for a drug that will target the virus they believe causes MS using mRNA tech, and thats huge.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Self-righteous indignation on the internet doesn't keep people out of bars.

Thanks Gawd... or our population would be shrinking at an even faster rate

 

[Jarnhamar]

Self-righteous indignation on the internet doesn't keep people out of bars.

That criticism of their common sense really got to you eh?

 

[winds_13]

For people incessently complaining about employment mandates,

Yes, simply employment consequences... and the ability to travel freely, to fully participate in society, and to potentially be subject to punitive taxation... oh, and don't forget about the public scorn. One is free to seek work elsewhere but the federal government recommends all employers to not hire unvaccinated individuals, and questions whether such people should be "tolerated"... it's a rather simple matter indeed.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Well, if you're not willing to do your part to help society, why does society owe you anything??

 

[mariomike]

That criticism of their common sense really got to you eh?

The self-righteous indignation of incessantly criticizing one particular group for going to a bar the same night others across Ontario did the same thing doesnt get to me, because I consider the source.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The self-righteous indignation of incessantly criticizing one particular group for going to a bar the same night others across Ontario did the same thing doesnt get to me, because I consider the source.

I guess some of us just love hearing about and discussing paramedics all the time.
But you bring up a great point. How crazy is it to read a news article, post it on a message forum where all kinds of stories get discussed, and discuss it. Super weird.

 

[mariomike]

Thanks Gawd... or our population would be shrinking at an even faster rate

Sounds like a good joke.

"So, a coronavirus walks into a bar..."

 

[mariomike]

How crazy is it to read a news article, post it on a message forum where all kinds of stories get discussed, and discuss it.

Maybe not constantly make such a fuss over Ontarioans going to a bar.

Years ago, of the 850 members of our service, 436 of us were put in a 10-day quarantine.

The job got done. Same as I am sure it is now in Ottawa.