All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)

[OldSolduer]

So what does this mean for CF personel?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131

Would the CF fall under the some category or will members just be released under whatever category for refusing vaccination?

I would say "yes" BUT there's an elephant in the room no one seems to see.
A CAF member refused the anthrax vaccine. The case was stayed with no solution.

 

[Weinie]

I would say "yes" BUT there's an elephant in the room no one seems to see.
A CAF member refused the anthrax vaccine. The case was stayed with no solution.

Yup. But the CAF can impose significant restrictions on those who do not comply. No travel, no courses, no deployments, no exercises, no promotion. (although there are some of my Atlantic provinces brethren that would likely soak this up)

 

[MilEME09]

Yup. But the CAF can impose significant restrictions on those who do not comply. No travel, no courses, no deployments, no exercises, no promotion. (although there are some of my Atlantic provinces brethren that would likely soak this up)

But that opens up the universality of service can of worms

 

[Weinie]

But that opens up the universality of service can of worms

Yes, but it is also a forcing function. We are at about 90% of folks who have at least one dose(Reg Force). Factor in another 1% who for one reason or another cannot get a vax, and we reduce almost 10% of dead weight.

 

[Quirky]

Yup. But the CAF can impose significant restrictions on those who do not comply. No travel, no courses, no deployments, no exercises, no promotion. (although there are some of my Atlantic provinces brethren that would likely soak this up)

So a CAF member can keep their full benefit $65k job and pension while everyone else in the PS loses their job? Seems fair….I’d rather see the same rules apply government wide.

 

[Weinie]

So a CAF member can keep their full benefit $65k job and pension while everyone else in the PS loses their job? Seems fair….I’d rather see the same rules apply government wide.

Wait til the unions weigh in with their creative ideation on why it should not apply to union members.

My supposition would actually make it disadvantageous for a CAF member, who wants to advance, to stay employed, unless they get the shots, and would eventually lead to release. I suspect that we(the CAF) will be far more prescriptive (and ruthless) than our PS counterparts.

 

[Quirky]

Wait til the unions weigh in with their creative ideation on why it should not apply to union members.

My supposition would actually make it disadvantageous for a CAF member, who wants to advance, to stay employed, unless they get the shots, and would eventually lead to release. I suspect that we(the CAF) will be far more prescriptive (and ruthless) than our PS counterparts.

It could be as simple as:
1. Make your timing for your vaccine or
2. Release - No longer fit for service.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I can see that happening.

That would be racist.

 

[Kilted]

Yes, but it is also a forcing function. We are at about 90% of folks who have at least one dose(Reg Force). Factor in another 1% who for one reason or another cannot get a vax, and we reduce almost 10% of dead weight.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what the numbers are when they start tracking the reserves. I suspect that the vaccination rate is lower than 90%. I also suspect that we might have a few people who decide to release over it

 

[Kilted]

Also, are we likely also looking at mandatory vaccination for anyone stepping foot on DND property? I'm guessing that would mainly affect Cadets.

 

[mariomike]

Wait til the unions weigh in with their creative ideation on why it should not apply to union members.

HR experts correct me if I am wrong.

My - guess - as a layperson is, it would depend if a vaccine policy is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

We went through something similar in the union I was a member of regarding annual mandatory flu shots. Everything is negotiable.

More importantly, I would say based on my time in a union is to have a Quarantine, and especially a Working Quarantine Policy in case you are ordered to report for operations. Financially, it made a big difference when I was on quarantine, and still does with Covid, and whatever comes next.


Quarantine
45.17 (a) Time lost by a Paramedic as a result of being quarantined by any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation because of a job-related incident shall be treated as a leave of absence
with pay for the duration of the quarantine.

Working Quarantine
45.17(b) (i) All Paramedics who are under quarantine will be paid their regular rate of pay for their regularly scheduled shifts.
(ii) In addition to the compensation provided for in paragraph (i), all Paramedics who work while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be
paid a quarantine compensation premium of their regular hourly rate of pay for all hours worked.
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (ii) means all Local 416 Paramedics shall receive their regular hourly rate under paragraph (i) and a second regular hourly rate under paragraph (ii), or double time, while performing their work under the ‘Work Quarantine’, for their regularly scheduled hours only.
(iii) In addition to the quarantine compensation premium provided for in paragraph (ii) above, all Paramedics who work while under a
‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1½) the regular rate of pay for the overtime hours worked beyond
their regularly scheduled shift. (e.g., after 12 hours)
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iii) means that all Local 416 Paramedics that are engaged in end-of-shift overtime while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ will receive their regular hourly rate referred
to in paragraph (ii), plus time and one-half (1 ½) the regular hourly rate. Thereby equalling two and one-half (2 ½) times their regular hourly rate for all end of shift overtime hours worked.
(iv) All Paramedics who work on a scheduled day off, while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid time and one half (1 ½ ) the regular rate of pay, plus an additional quarantine compensation premium of one-half (½) the regular rate of pay, for all hours worked.
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iv) means all Local 416 Paramedics working on their days off while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ shall be paid double time for all hours worked.
(v) Once the employee agrees to work under a ‘Work Quarantine’ he/she will be expected to report for their regularly scheduled
shifts for the period the quarantine is in effect. An employee who chooses to be on ‘Home Quarantine’ and later chooses to work
under ‘Work Quarantine’ must notify the Scheduling Unit eight hours prior to the commencement of their next scheduled shift.
(vi) These terms represent exceptional and unusual circumstances and only apply when a ‘Work Quarantine’ has been declared by
any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation.
(vii)Local 416 Paramedics that work or choose to work under the provisions
of clause 45.17(b) shall continue to receive all their normal Collective Agreement entitlements in addition to the quarantine
premium pay referred to herein, which would include but is not limited to, shift premiums. It is understood that this provision is
not intended to provide Paramedics with any further overtime entitlement than is already provided for in paragraphs (iii) and (iv).

 

[Weinie]

HR experts correct me if I am wrong.

My - guess - as a layperson is, it would depend if a vaccine policy is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

We went through something similar in the union I was a member of regarding annual mandatory flu shots. Everything is negotiable.

More importantly, I would say based on my time in a union is to have a Quarantine, and especially a Working Quarantine Policy in case you are ordered to report for operations. Financially, it made a big difference when I was on quarantine, and still does with Covid, and whatever comes next.


Quarantine
45.17 (a) Time lost by a Paramedic as a result of being quarantined by any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation because of a job-related incident shall be treated as a leave of absence
with pay for the duration of the quarantine.

Working Quarantine
45.17(b) (i) All Paramedics who are under quarantine will be paid their regular rate of pay for their regularly scheduled shifts.
(ii) In addition to the compensation provided for in paragraph (i), all Paramedics who work while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be
paid a quarantine compensation premium of their regular hourly rate of pay for all hours worked.
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (ii) means all Local 416 Paramedics shall receive their regular hourly rate under paragraph (i) and a second regular hourly rate under paragraph (ii), or double time, while performing their work under the ‘Work Quarantine’, for their regularly scheduled hours only.
(iii) In addition to the quarantine compensation premium provided for in paragraph (ii) above, all Paramedics who work while under a
‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1½) the regular rate of pay for the overtime hours worked beyond
their regularly scheduled shift. (e.g., after 12 hours)
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iii) means that all Local 416 Paramedics that are engaged in end-of-shift overtime while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ will receive their regular hourly rate referred
to in paragraph (ii), plus time and one-half (1 ½) the regular hourly rate. Thereby equalling two and one-half (2 ½) times their regular hourly rate for all end of shift overtime hours worked.
(iv) All Paramedics who work on a scheduled day off, while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid time and one half (1 ½ ) the regular rate of pay, plus an additional quarantine compensation premium of one-half (½) the regular rate of pay, for all hours worked.
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iv) means all Local 416 Paramedics working on their days off while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ shall be paid double time for all hours worked.
(v) Once the employee agrees to work under a ‘Work Quarantine’ he/she will be expected to report for their regularly scheduled
shifts for the period the quarantine is in effect. An employee who chooses to be on ‘Home Quarantine’ and later chooses to work
under ‘Work Quarantine’ must notify the Scheduling Unit eight hours prior to the commencement of their next scheduled shift.
(vi) These terms represent exceptional and unusual circumstances and only apply when a ‘Work Quarantine’ has been declared by
any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation.
(vii)Local 416 Paramedics that work or choose to work under the provisions
of clause 45.17(b) shall continue to receive all their normal Collective Agreement entitlements in addition to the quarantine
premium pay referred to herein, which would include but is not limited to, shift premiums. It is understood that this provision is
not intended to provide Paramedics with any further overtime entitlement than is already provided for in paragraphs (iii) and (iv).

Not everything is based on paramedics CBA. Realpolitik is what matters here.

 

[mariomike]

Not everything is based on paramedics CBA.

Remove the P-word if it offends you. Substitute any other job classification. The language remains the same.

You brought up the subject of unions. Not me.

Realpolitik is what matters here.

Didn't realise this is now the Covid political thread.

Title on this one says, "All things Novel Coronavirus".

 

[brihard]

HR experts correct me if I am wrong.

My - guess - as a layperson is, it would depend if a vaccine policy is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

We went through something similar in the union I was a member of regarding annual mandatory flu shots. Everything is negotiable.

More importantly, I would say based on my time in a union is to have a Quarantine, and especially a Working Quarantine Policy in case you are ordered to report for operations. Financially, it made a big difference when I was on quarantine, and still does with Covid, and whatever comes next.


Quarantine
45.17 (a) Time lost by a Paramedic as a result of being quarantined by any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation because of a job-related incident shall be treated as a leave of absence
with pay for the duration of the quarantine.

Working Quarantine
45.17(b) (i) All Paramedics who are under quarantine will be paid their regular rate of pay for their regularly scheduled shifts.
(ii) In addition to the compensation provided for in paragraph (i), all Paramedics who work while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be
paid a quarantine compensation premium of their regular hourly rate of pay for all hours worked.
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (ii) means all Local 416 Paramedics shall receive their regular hourly rate under paragraph (i) and a second regular hourly rate under paragraph (ii), or double time, while performing their work under the ‘Work Quarantine’, for their regularly scheduled hours only.
(iii) In addition to the quarantine compensation premium provided for in paragraph (ii) above, all Paramedics who work while under a
‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1½) the regular rate of pay for the overtime hours worked beyond
their regularly scheduled shift. (e.g., after 12 hours)
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iii) means that all Local 416 Paramedics that are engaged in end-of-shift overtime while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ will receive their regular hourly rate referred
to in paragraph (ii), plus time and one-half (1 ½) the regular hourly rate. Thereby equalling two and one-half (2 ½) times their regular hourly rate for all end of shift overtime hours worked.
(iv) All Paramedics who work on a scheduled day off, while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid time and one half (1 ½ ) the regular rate of pay, plus an additional quarantine compensation premium of one-half (½) the regular rate of pay, for all hours worked.
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iv) means all Local 416 Paramedics working on their days off while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ shall be paid double time for all hours worked.
(v) Once the employee agrees to work under a ‘Work Quarantine’ he/she will be expected to report for their regularly scheduled
shifts for the period the quarantine is in effect. An employee who chooses to be on ‘Home Quarantine’ and later chooses to work
under ‘Work Quarantine’ must notify the Scheduling Unit eight hours prior to the commencement of their next scheduled shift.
(vi) These terms represent exceptional and unusual circumstances and only apply when a ‘Work Quarantine’ has been declared by
any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation.
(vii)Local 416 Paramedics that work or choose to work under the provisions
of clause 45.17(b) shall continue to receive all their normal Collective Agreement entitlements in addition to the quarantine
premium pay referred to herein, which would include but is not limited to, shift premiums. It is understood that this provision is
not intended to provide Paramedics with any further overtime entitlement than is already provided for in paragraphs (iii) and (iv).

Not an HR expert, but I've picked up a few things and will definitely be dealing with this at work.

Collective agreements can deal with some things and not with others. Collective agreements (at least federal public service ones) have limitations on content under the Federal Public Service Labour Relations Act. They can't bargain anything that would require legislative amendment, for one. I suspect we'll see this thing come to pass via federal regulation promulgated by Order In Council.

I have serious ethical concerns with this. I'm ardently pro-vax and got it as early as I could, but I'm concerned about making it mandatory for everyone in this context, at the risk of their jobs. A few considerations:

1- The articulation for this is apparently occupational health and safety under the Canada Labour Code. If an employee shrugs and says "you were fine with me working at home for the past year, I'll just keep doing that", does the government have a leg to stand on?

2- The vaccines are not yet approved fully for regular use. Minor thing IMHO, but still relevant.

3- The data seem to suggest that vaccines are very effective in preventing serious illness, but the data is much less supportive of them preventing people from becoming infected or transmitting it. I want to understand the rationale on this from an occupational health and safety standpoint if my vaccine doesn't really protect anyone else but me. Very possible my understanding of the data is wrong.

I'm concerned this may be less about an objectively defensible occupational health and safety concern, and more about taking advantage of a 'captive audience' of employees subject to federal regulation in order to boost compliance numbers.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Yup. But the CAF can impose significant restrictions on those who do not comply. No travel, no courses, no deployments, no exercises, no promotion. (although there are some of my Atlantic provinces brethren that would likely soak this up)

I'd say release them.

 

[cavalryman]

I'm concerned this may be less about an objectively defensible occupational health and safety concern, and more about taking advantage of a 'captive audience' of employees subject to federal regulation in order to boost compliance numbers.

Having spent almost 3 years in PCO (under Jean Chretien) and 2 years in TBS in relatively senior positions, albeit in the first decade of this century, the cynicism I developed from my experience in those central agencies makes me tend to believe it's pretty much a 'captive audience' gambit to boost numbers. It fits with the mentality I witnessed firsthand.

 

[Weinie]

Having spent almost 3 years in PCO (under Jean Chretien) and 2 years in TBS in relatively senior positions, albeit in the first decade of this century, the cynicism I developed from my experience in those central agencies makes me tend to believe it's pretty much a 'captive audience' gambit to boost numbers. It fits with the mentality I witnessed firsthand.

Or, we can all get vaccinated, be safe, and then take away all of the conspiracy theories from all sides .

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So a CAF member can keep their full benefit $65k job and pension while everyone else in the PS loses their job? Seems fair….I’d rather see the same rules apply government wide.

Hmm. I'd agree, with a caveat. When the PS is ready to sign that unlimited liability contract, then they can equate their jobs to the military. Technically, it may be that the CAF is a PS job, but I've always considered our station in life as something more important and a much higher calling than that of a public servant. Probably doesn't mean much to the conversation or a dead end tangent. While our wage and some other stuff is tied to the PS, the military has always been a very different beast, unique to our profession. Nothing else compares to it. Just my opinion based on personal bias.

 

[cavalryman]

Or, we can all get vaccinated, be safe, and then take away all of the conspiracy theories from all sides .

You forgot the /s tag.

 

[Weinie]

Remove the P-word if it offends you. Substitute any other job classification. The language remains the same.

You brought up the subject of unions. Not me.



Didn't realise this is now the Covid political thread.

Title on this one says, "All things Novel Coronavirus".

Stop your self-righteous and indulgent complaining. Everything you post is through the lens of Toronto paramedics that you left a gazillion years ago. Your experience has value when we discuss EMS, but your framing every response to multiple subjects, in terms of Toronto EMS, is wearing thin.