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All Things CAF and Covid/ Covid Vaccine [merged]

pef459

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When you find yourself in the middle of a minefield or in a Gazillion laws of the Land, proceed with caution.
And be aware, the guys who make booby traps are very very devious.
 

PuckChaser

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Is it a false equivalency? If all three things can measurably be found to save lives, how are they not equivalent? We don’t know how COVID is going to evolve, and the possibilities are more than binary. It is absolutely nonsense to declare now that the future will be either freedom & no masks or over-reach & masks.
How many waves that are bigger than the one before while we had mask mandates do you need to show their effect is pretty piss poor. If we're not allowed to compare influenza as a seasonal illness to COVID, seatbelts to mask mandates is absolutely ridiculous. Remember where the burden of proof (not correlated data) lies with the individual wanting the mandate, not the people wanting normal.

Wear a damn bubble suit if you want, I could care less. I'm not scared of a cold, and can rationally see that anything other than a KN95 or N95 has marginal protection against Omicron (and whatever our next seasonal variant in Fall 2022 will be). Your fear should not equal a blanket mandate.
 

McG

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How many waves that are bigger than the one before while we had mask mandates do you need to show their effect is pretty piss poor.
So, you believe that masks are causing successive waves to be larger, or what is your point? Maybe you think in binary - the masks did not 100% stop COVID therefore they must be 0% effective? Or maybe it’s a sort of survivor bias - you can’t see the numbers that did not die because of masks therefore it must be zero?

If we're not allowed to compare influenza as a seasonal illness to COVID,
You can make a comparison, but you can’t honestly say they are the same. As compared to influenza, the waves of COVID kill more people, put greater strain on healthcare systems, and come more frequently. There is no “long influenza” nor a measurable reduction of brain size that can be found after a case of the flu.

[comparing] seatbelts to mask mandates is absolutely ridiculous.
There are repeatable studies done on both to show they reduce the harms that are intended to protect against. Similarly, the introduction of each was met by gnashing of teeth and whining from special fragile snowflakes who declared themselves manly men, too brave for such horrible inconveniences. I’ll give you one thing though, seatbelts generally don’t protect other people’s safety while masking does measurably protect others. I suppose the argument could be made that rallying against seatbelts is less selfish.

Wear a damn bubble suit if you want, I could care less. I'm not scared of a cold, and can rationally see that anything other than a KN95 or N95 has marginal protection against Omicron (and whatever our next seasonal variant in Fall 2022 will be). Your fear should not equal a blanket mandate
Yeah, see above about fragile and selfish snowflakes self identifying as tough guys.

Remember where the burden of proof (not correlated data) lies with the individual wanting the mandate, not the people wanting normal.
There are lots of studies that have proven masks reduce transmission and linked mask wearing to reduced virus severity. Many of these studies have even been posted on this site. Cringing about burden of proof is only legitimate when you are not ignoring the proof that challenges your desired conclusion. I’ve seen opinion pieces against public health measures that cite rising suicide rates, but when I have checked stats they show rates have been down through the pandemic. I’ve seen arguments that public health measures are harmful to mental health in general and these point to an uptick in calls to mental health lines but these arguments only show correlation. Personally, I think having friend or family in hospital for COVID would tend to harm mental health in general, but the correlation arguments link the uptick to public health measures and most strongly to measures that close businesses and schools … masks are almost an afterthought opposed on anecdote.

So we have strong evidence that masks reduce COVID, and an argument that “lock-downs” may harm mental health. Masks in a worst case can delay “lock-downs” and accelerate their end while preventing them all together in a best case. If you are pro mental health or anti lockdown, are then masks seem like an easy win.

Anyway, going all the way back to my initial point: COVID is alive and evolving to maximize its spread. It does not care that it has been around for two years or three years or four years, and it does not care that people are tired of health protection measures (though it will exploit that). It may become more or less transmissible, and it may become more or less lethal. But to stand-up now and declare that future use of masks will be proof of an authoritarian Canadian government? That remains asinine.
 
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Jarnhamar

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I’ve been judging the crowd. I went into a drug store and everyone was wearing a mask. So I put one on.

I went to a gaming store. All masks still.

Had breakfast at a restaurant. Mixed. But I put one on in the waiting area.

Quick in and out at the gas station. I didn’t wear a mask.

Situations will vary for me. On the bus i’d be wearing a mask.

Kind of like applying camouflage to your face but not your ears neck and hands😳
 

Jarnhamar

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More like wearing cam when needed or as required as opposed to wearing it all the time.
Touche!

Those situations seem very subjective though. No mask in a gas station, masks in a gaming store, mask in a waiting area at a restaurant but then taking it off to eat. It's like the pull-out method of birth control.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Or: "You don't need to wear masks, don't panic buy all the N95" (Because we have neglected to maintain our stocks and now the Public Health System needs to panic buy first) How to build confidence in the public health officials...not! The hand washing, masks and social distancing were likely as effective as the various vaccines and at much less costs or risks.
 

PuckChaser

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Brace yourselves, the unclean are about to be returned to duty. Draft policy has been leaked to the media, and outlines what we all knew: there's going to be massive administrative effort trying to sort out all the cases of the folks released, pending release or are in the AR process.

Canadian military poised to end vaccine mandate
 

brihard

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Brace yourselves, the unclean are about to be returned to duty. Draft policy has been leaked to the media, and outlines what we all knew: there's going to be massive administrative effort trying to sort out all the cases of the folks released, pending release or are in the AR process.

Canadian military poised to end vaccine mandate
I’ll be curious to see how much drafts that were leaked to the media match what ultimately receives CDS approval.

There’s gonna be a whole different level of “finding out” for some who may want back in, but who compromised their security clearances and reliability status through some of the individuals or groups they might have associated with in the protest movement on this.

This will indeed be a mess. Though I continue to have zero sympathy for those who chose to render themselves non-deployable and became administrative burdens over this.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Brace yourselves, the unclean are about to be returned to duty. Draft policy has been leaked to the media, and outlines what we all knew: there's going to be massive administrative effort trying to sort out all the cases of the folks released, pending release or are in the AR process.

Canadian military poised to end vaccine mandate
Leonardo Dicaprio Lol GIF
 

Humphrey Bogart

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I’ll be curious to see how much drafts that were leaked to the media match what ultimately receives CDS approval.

There’s gonna be a whole different level of “finding out” for some who may want back in, but who compromised their security clearances and reliability status through some of the individuals or groups they might have associated with in the protest movement on this.

This will indeed be a mess. Though I continue to have zero sympathy for those who chose to render themselves non-deployable and became administrative burdens over this.
People deployed without getting vaccinated. I deployed with a bunch of them. They just got threatened a lot and told they would be flown home if they didn't get the shot(s).

"Ok fly me home then"......

They stayed the entire time 🤣.

Then there were others who got the shot and just refused to do the attestation. That was even more funny because it just made a point of how dumb the entire attestation procedure was.
 

brihard

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People deployed without getting vaccinated. I deployed with a bunch of them. They just got threatened a lot and told they would be flown home if they didn't get the shot(s).

"Ok fly me home then"......

They stayed the entire time 🤣.

Then there were others who got the shot and just refused to do the attestation. That was even more funny because it just made a point of how dumb the entire attestation procedure was.
Interesting. Were they stuck on ship during port visits? I could see navy having different deployment requirements than army or Air Force given that the latter two will be on the soil of another sovereign state with that state’s consent.

It doesn’t change my opinion regarding the choices individuals made. Cleaner approach for the organization would simply have been to make it part of the standard shots all CAF members are required to have, under the same policy structure.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Interesting. Were they stuck on ship during port visits? I could see navy having different deployment requirements than army or Air Force given that the latter two will be on the soil of another sovereign state with that state’s consent.

It doesn’t change my opinion regarding the choices individuals made. Cleaner approach for the organization would simply have been to make it part of the standard shots all CAF members are required to have, under the same policy structure.
Nope, they were also threatened with that. All the threats ended up being just that.... threats.
 

Kat Stevens

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My body my choice! Except for a somewhat less than effective vaccine, then it's shut up, roll up your sleeve, and get in line.:D
 

brihard

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My body my choice! Except for a somewhat less than effective vaccine, then it's shut up, roll up your sleeve, and get in line.:D
Meh. I had to get a bunch for Afghanistan, so that take doesn’t impress me. And it absolutely was effective, as seen in ICU numbers and the relative proportion of who was ending up there. Obviously not 100%, and obviously this virus has had the ability to escape immunity to some considerable degree. None of which invalidates the legitimacy of the policy requirements at the time they were made and enforced. Nobody forced any troops to take a vaccine, it was simply a choice they had to make that would have employability consequences.

Anyway, this has been hashed out here many times over. Troops chose the behaviour, they chose the consequences, and they were very informed as to what that would be. I recall at least that when I was in, your own preferences and wants did not take precedence over the operational requirements of the service. I didn’t think I got out long enough ago for that to have changed.
 

PuckChaser

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Cleaner approach for the organization would simply have been to make it part of the standard shots all CAF members are required to have, under the same policy structure.
Which is the dumpster fire the CAF created. They had a completely legal mechanism under QR&O 15.01 or changing the baseline vaccination requirement. But that wasn't politically expedient. Instead, they ordered everyone to give up their private medical information by attesting to vaccination status and in traditional military fashion threaten people with things that were not possible (forced LWOP anyone?).

The CDS screwed this one up big time and now he's got to pick up the pieces.
 

PuckChaser

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That's the best part about partisan political memes, they're almost always completely wrong and misleading.

COVID-19 vaccine does not:

1. Outside a 10-12 week window protect anyone from getting COVID
2. Reduce your ability to pass on the virus to others
3. If you're 0-50 with no COVID risk factors meaningfully reduce your chance of being hospitalized
 
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