Air Nav postings....and other random questions

[dimsum]

Hello all,

Been lurking here for a little while and loving all the info that I've been getting "second-hand"...I might as well voice my questions and get them answered, or at least have some sarcasm directed my way! 

As a reserve MARS type looking to transfer to Air Nav (hopeful DRDC Toronto medical is in end-Jan), I've been living the good life in Victoria for a few years and seeing the Sea Kings fly by from Pat Bay.  Does anyone on here (possibly from CFANS) have any idea what the ratio of Aurora/Herc/Sea King nav postings are?  Do the people from the course get what they want...and what base they want?  I can't get enough of the Victoria weather and lifestyle, so my first choice (by a long shot) is MH west coast.  Although I'm willing to listen to Navs from Comox/Greenwood/Peg/Trenton brag about the pros living there!

Also, are there any long waits for OTU, etc?  I know in the MARS trade (at least the reg force side) I've seen people waiting a long time for a course. 

Finally, and this might be a little embarassing for someone who's already thrown their papers in and went through a whole bunch of tests, but what does a "typical" transport/MPA/MH nav do in their job?  Setting aside the remarks of "growing long hair and learning how to play golf while looking for your hotel keys"...all of which I fully plan to do...ANAV has got to be the first trade that I've talked to multiple people (10+, on random tours and going to Maritime Warfare Basic) who absolutely loved their job.  And what are typical deployments and frequency of those for the Transport and MPA crews?  I can already guess where the MH ones go...!

Thanks...range is clear, Flag Bravo's hoisted and verbal shooting may begin!

 

[aesop081]

There are a few navs on this board that will be along to answer your questions.  There have also been quite a few threads on this so do a search as well.

 

[Inch]

While not a Nav myself, I am a Sea King driver and can answer a few of your questions.

Re: OTU
406 is backed up, we (423 Sqn) had a few new Navs on OJT for almost a year before getting on course. OJT consisted of working in the 423 Ops cell as well as other odd jobs. I have just returned from a NATO so I couldn't tell you what the current situation is, but from talking to my friends on course, they're only putting 2-4 through at a time due to some serviceability problems in Shearwater. These should hopefully clear up in the new year as 423 will no longer be putting 4 AirDets to sea, we're going down to 3 AirDets which means more qualified techs and aircrew in Shearwater to get 406 student trips done. So, on the OTU note, be prepared to wait for up to a year.

An MH Tactical Coordinator (TACCO), fights the aircraft. He's responsible for employment of the AESOp, as well as the tactical employment of the aircraft. Once you upgrade to Crew Commander you also become responsible for all kinds of different things related to completion of the mission. Without delving too deeply into it, your specialty is going to be waterspace management, all the rules associated with torpedoes, positioning of the aircraft for ASuW reporting, plotting search patterns and maintaining pattern integrity for SAR, etc. During utility missions, you will work from the back door with the AESOp for hoist work, slinging, C6 firing, and HIFRs onboard ship.

As for deployments, MH tends to go to sea as much if not more than most fishheads. I had 6 months of sea time last year, due to the fact that we rotate through high readiness ships, its not uncommon to get 6+ months of sea time every year.

 

[navymich]

.. I've been living the good life in Victoria for a few years and seeing the Sea Kings fly by from Pat Bay. 

Have you been for a famil flight yet?  Give Pat Bay a call, and ask.  I went for one myself when I was looking at AESOp.  Not only was it amazing to actually get up, but you get the chance to talk to tons of people, both in and out of the trade that you are interested in.  And even if they aren't able to accommodate you for a flight, they will probably still let you stop by and talk to them and be given a tour.

 

[Globesmasher]

Like Inch I am not a navigator, but I'll try to offer some insight if I can.

Firstly, do not let anybody tell you any lies about the transport community.  I was just on a short course in Winnipeg last September and during lunch at the same table as some CFANS students I overheard them talking about their future postings to the C-17.  Someone had been lying to them - still is I believe.

There will be no Nav crew position on the C-17 (CC-177).  There will most likely NOT be a Nav crew position on the new J model as we begin to proceed down the road of the USAF and RAF crew concept model.  2 pilots, 1 (or 2) loadmaster and a tech crewman.  FWSAR is about to have a reduced crew concept forced upon them as well whether they like it or not.

Glass cockpits, automation and advanced avionics and flight management systems are rapidly replacing the Nav and the flight engineer on-board modern aircraft.

I don't argue whether or not this is a good thing or not - I'm just telling you what the "state of the future nation" will be in the transport community.  Do not let anybody outside of the Tpt community tell you otherwise and lie to you - there is nothing worse than dashed expectations.  This is just a sign of the times.

We're looking at (if all goes well) with having the C-17 on line in 2007 and 2008.  The J model in late 2009 and 2010 with FWSAR coming on line no later than 2015.  We are retiring the legacy E/H model Hercs at a rate of 4 per year with a collateral reduction in YFR.  We've already mothballed 5

Should you be lucky enough to come to the Tpt community on-board the legacy Herc as a tactical Nav then you're in for a good time - plenty of flying in and out of Af-stan with an average of 6 months away per year, 3 rotations of 2 months each.  Crews have averaged 5 months per year away from home since winter 2001 and there is no sign of respite in the coming future ... just a reduction of CC-130 Es and Hs for other mundane things as all remaining aircraft are pushed into Op Athena/Archer and whatever it will be called next.

Best of luck to you and your endeavours - I can't speak about SAR or MH at all.  I know zip about them, but the Tpt community is a great place to work if you want to get away from the wife and kids for 6 months a year ...... and be warned, contrary to popular belief it is not all hotels .... there are some hotels for sure .... but mostly ATCO trailers now - which is just fine.

Just be sure to arm yourself with all the correct information before choosing a community.

 

[h3tacco]

I'm a Sea King Tacco so I can help you a bit. Inch pretty much hit the nail on the head for the Sea King world. I went through CFANS in 2000 and finished a tour at 423 last summer. When I was in CFANS the breakdown for airframes was 50% Aurora 25% Herc 25% Sea King. When this will change would be just speculation but to echo what Globemaster has said I have heard that the NAVs future in transport world is numbered. How will this  effect the trade overall in the future is difficult to say right now.

Although I am somewhat  biased I would say the MH community is the most rewarding for Navs because of the variety of tasks. ie tactical stuff sitting at your console and the backdoor work (hoisting, slinging etc...)  Halifax vs Victoria? I grew up on the west coast and spent the last five years on the east. They each have there own pros and cons. I think Victoria has a better overall lifestyle but housing in Halifax is cheaper and Halifax has a better bar scene.

If you anymore questions about training or the MH world just fire away.

 

[dimsum]

Wow.  Thanks for all the info...pretty much all the questions I asked were answered bang-on!  Now hopefully an Aurora Nav can chime in on their aspect of the job...

With the 6-month sea time that MH expects, is it likely rotation after rotation of NATO/Gulf tours, or would they be smaller trips? 

While I'm a little disappointed that the Transports won't be having Navs, I've had a bit of fore-warning from my friends doing pilot training.  At least now I know it'll either be east coast or west coast...where on the coast would be the question.  Since the Cyclone is going to Shearwater first, would it be reasonable to think that most new MH navs around the 2008 timeframe will be looking at an east coast posting?

And, purely for my own interest's sake, what happens after the first flying tour...is instructing at CFANS likely, or do they shuffle you to another gig at the Sqn?  Just thinking down the road as I'd start to wonder how regular 4-year moves for the next 20 years would affect any semblance of starting a family.

 

[aesop081]

Now hopefully an Aurora Nav can chime in on their aspect of the job...

 

I dont think we have one of those on this board.  But i'll do my best being an Aurora AESOp.  Navigators on the CP-140 start out as either Navigator-Comunicator or as Acoustics sensor operators.  The MOAT ( Maritime Operational Aircrew Training) course is roughly 6 months long and taken in Greenwood, NS. The NAVCOM operates the navigation system ( INS) and hadles tactical cominications during missions such as talking to other warships and hailing merchats during surveillance patrols.  There is little actual navigation being done but its requires attention to details in order to get the crew where they are supposed to be. the NAVCOM also assists the TACNAV with mission management. The NAVCOM also works closely with the radar operator when working with helicopters and freindly warships.

ASOs operate the acoustic detection system on the aircraft which basicaly means they listen to the sonobouys and analyse the data for decision-making by the TACNAV.

Either way it means long hours ( flights are 10-12 hours long) but you get to travel to some pretty sweet locations, hotels all the way, rental cars and TD money and in flight you get to make fun of the MH guys when they are down there in the helo and you are up there cooking breakfast in the back of the plane.

 

[dimsum]

Cdnaviator,

So how many months of the year would you say an Aurora crew would be deployed, typically...and where are some places they'd go?  I haven't got much in the way of aurora info yet.  And...how is Comox/Greenwood as a home base?  I'm afraid it'd be a little too "small-town" for my liking...

 

[aesop081]

Cdnaviator,

So how many months of the year would you say an Aurora crew would be deployed, typically...and where are some places they'd go?  I haven't got much in the way of aurora info yet.  And...how is Comox/Greenwood as a home base?  I'm afraid it'd be a little too "small-town" for my liking...

We go away for a week here, a week there, 3 weeks here, 2 weeks there......So far in a little over a year on sqn i have been to Hawaii for 2 weeks, San Diego 3 times for a total of 6 weeks, Sicily for 3 weeks, Shemya Alaska for 2 weeks, Yellowknife for a week. There have been other deployements to Palm Springs, Scottland ( been there twice), Japan, Korea and Australia.

We also go to Greenwood for one week every 6 months for our simulator training.

Greenwood is small town lost in the valey. Comox/ Courtenay is bigger and nicer, not so small town-ish

 

[gaspasser]

"Greenwood is small town lost in the valey. Comox/ Courtenay is bigger and nicer, not so small town-ish"
Don't forget to say that Greenwood is on the other coast surrounded by two (uhhmm)mountains.  Left butt cheek-->, right butt cheek--<..where are you??
Sorry, spent 9 years there, kind of grows on ya.
We now return you to your normal thread..

 

[Inch]

Wow.  Thanks for all the info...pretty much all the questions I asked were answered bang-on!  Now hopefully an Aurora Nav can chime in on their aspect of the job...

With the 6-month sea time that MH expects, is it likely rotation after rotation of NATO/Gulf tours, or would they be smaller trips? 

While I'm a little disappointed that the Transports won't be having Navs, I've had a bit of fore-warning from my friends doing pilot training.  At least now I know it'll either be east coast or west coast...where on the coast would be the question.  Since the Cyclone is going to Shearwater first, would it be reasonable to think that most new MH navs around the 2008 timeframe will be looking at an east coast posting?

And, purely for my own interest's sake, what happens after the first flying tour...is instructing at CFANS likely, or do they shuffle you to another gig at the Sqn?  Just thinking down the road as I'd start to wonder how regular 4-year moves for the next 20 years would affect any semblance of starting a family.

For MH, you'll probably do 2-3 long trips in your 5 year posting, the rest would be short trips up to a month or so. On the west coast you'll do RIMPACs probably every year for a couple months and ports will be Hawaii and such, possibly even Southeast Asia or Australia. While on the east coast you'll do regular trips to the VACAPES off the coast of Norfolk Virginia or to the AUTEC range in the Bahamas, porting just about anywhere along the east coast of the US and sometimes the Bahamas. Also on the east coast you'll do NATO's or other NATO related trips to Europe and the Med, two Dets are supposed to be heading over to the Baltic Sea for NATO exercises sometime this spring. Both coasts you'll probably get a trip to the Persion Gulf for Op Altair, and of course there's always the unknown. Just before I got to the Sqn, the guys were doing regular trips to Op Apollo in the Gulf. Most had gone a couple times in their initial tour.

Your tour doesn't start until after you're finished the OTU, thus if you wait a year, then almost a year on course plus 5 years on Sqn, you're at 7 years before a posting. I don't want to say the majority, but quite a large number are posted inside the Wing, to 406, HOTEF or Wing Ops. So it's quite possible to stay in Shearwater/Halifax for 10+ years if you want to.

 

[aesop081]

On the west coast you'll do RIMPACs probably every year for a couple months

RIMPAC is every 2 years

Your tour doesn't start until after you're finished the OTU, thus if you wait a year, then almost a year on course plus 5 years on Sqn, you're at 7 years before a posting. I don't want to say the majority, but quite a large number are posted inside the Wing, to 406, HOTEF or Wing Ops. So it's quite possible to stay in Shearwater/Halifax for 10+ years if you want to.

Same in the VP comunity. If you are in Greenwood you can bounce between 405 (MP) Sqn, 404 (MP&T) Sqn, MP&EU, 14 SES, MPSET and 14 Wing Ops so you can spend a fair bit of a career there. In Comox its only 407 (MP) Sqn and 19 Wing Ops so basicaly, in the CP-140, all roads lead to Greenwood.

 

[KingKikapu]

Sorry, but I felt it was time to resurrect this one from the grave, and get a little bit of a status update.  Being this was one of the better ANAV/ACSO threads, I was hoping you guys could post any changes to the situation.  Maybe you could clear up a few things for an outsider...

• Are the J herc's without ACSO positions as I suspect they are?  Given the ever dwindling number of ACSO transport rides, are they even training for this role anymore, or are they relying on previously trained individuals until that avenue is closed?
• I remember vaguely about one of the ACSO positions being axed from the auroras a while ago.  The ASO's job being taken over by Aesops?  Am I smoking something?
• Any words on the status of ACSO in FWSAR?  There was talk of this disappearing (at least partially) right?
• 2010 for cyclones, and no doubt in limited supply.  Is training already shifting towards the new platform?

I realize some/all of these questions might have already been answered, but if they were, often they were in cryptic places almost as side notes (and off topic).  I figured I would get a few of these answered up front.
Thanks for any updated input.

 

[aesop081]

• Are the J herc's without ACSO positions

• 
  
  That is correct. Only the C-130H will continue to employ ACSOs.
  
  
  

  • I remember vaguely about one of the ACSO positions being axed from the auroras a while ago.  The ASO's job being taken over by Aesops?  Am I smoking something?

  
  No you are not smoking anything. Although some ACSOs are still being trained as ASOs, the first 2 AES Ops have graduated the course and are back to their Sqns employed as such. The next batch of AES Ops to be trained as ASOs is being selected and will be on the next ASO MOAT course run at 404 Sqn.
  
  
  
  

    for cyclones, and no doubt in limited supply.  Is training already shifting towards the new platform

  
  No as there are no Cyclones yet to train with. Sea King training will continue for some time to maintain that capability during transition.
  
  
  
  

 

[h3tacco]

To quickly answer your questions.

1. There will be no NAV/ACSO on the J-Model Hercs. They are still training people for the H-model Hercs. When that will stop I do not know.

2.  It is true Acoustic Sensor Operators (Officers?) ASO seats are now being filled by AES Ops, however, NAVs/ACSOs also fill the NAVCOM and TACNAV seats so there are still spots in Auroras for ACSOs. And while the Aurora replacement project (CMA) is way to early to decide crew concept it is a good bet that there will be one or two seats for ACSOs, which would be in line with how other countries are crewing modern MPAs.

3. FWSAR have not heard anything.

4. Training has not shifted to the Cyclone and will not until the platform is closer to delivery.

The other pipeline which will open to ACSOs will be UAVs sometime in the future. I don't know for sure but maybe a year or two away.

 

[dimsum]

Funny/ironic that I started this thread, but some other possibilities for ACSOs fresh out of CFANS/1CFFTS are the Alpha Jet (EWO) and the Polaris when used for Air-to-Air Refuelling.  The last few classes have had at least one go to those 2 communities. 

 

[KingKikapu]

Out of curiosity Dimsum, how large were your classes?

 

[dimsum]

Out of curiosity Dimsum, how large were your classes?

Each serial had a max of 8 people.

 

[Dou You]

I'm sorry to once again bring this thread up from the dead, but it seems to have some of the best info on not only the postings an ACSO can receive but the way of life/average day on the job on each airframe.

I was just wondering since there is very little info on the Polaris and Alpha Jet routes for an ACSO, if someone could shed some light on these two aircraft? What the ACSO's job on the aircraft is, where you would be posted if selected for either one, average day of work, etc.

There may not be any ACSOs with either of these postings on this forum, but if anyone has any useful information that would be great.

Cheers