Air Defence- 5 Years[and counting] of A.D. Thoughts

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Gunner,I asked this question a couple of weeks ago. Maybe one of you "current" gunners could grab someone and direct them to this site if they would be so inclined. This is an area that never seems to get fresh answers on this forum. CHEERS

 

[Gunner]

I‘m not back to work for another couple of weeks but I will try and find out what is going on with Air Defence. In the meantime I‘ll try poking around the DND website.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Ok have a few more questions regarding the fine art of bird gunning.
1) Which version of the Skyguard do we use I or II?
2) 4 AD regiment being our sole reg force air defence unit. How is it organized? Is it all ADATS and guns?
3) Reserve AD units are they solely equipped with Javelins or does the reg force have some as well? 4) Given the choice would you keep the ADATs or replace it with something like rapier?
Thanks folks.

 

[twohig]

I may have a few answers for you. I know that they are testing the new LAV mounted ADATS system, and from the point of view of the CO for 4 AD it‘s a done deal (watch and shoot).
The ADATS is also being tested with a new anti tank missile (although the regular missile is already dual role) and other anti-personnel munitions. Time (and budget) will tell what will come of that.

ADATS is being promoted as the best ground based resource for I-Star.

4 AD has a bty in Gagetown, it‘s HQ and another bty in Moncton and a liason element in Cold Lake.

4 AD has the distinct honour of training with EVERYBODY. It has Gun/Skyguard and ADATS, but most of the courses are for ADATS gunners and det cmdrs.

Reserve AD units have Javelin and the school in Gagetown has an Javelin section.

I personnaly have a fondness for ADATS, with it‘s infra red and zoom optics it can see many things before they see you. I would like to see them improve the optics because the technology is old. The systems radar is still very capable and in the hands of a competent crew nothing sneaks by.

This is the extent of the information I have at this moment.

Hope I answered your questions, if anybody else hears of anything new let me know.

 

[birdgunner]

to add to ATT58:

It has been granted that ADATS will eventually be on a LAV base and OC in PQ is doing the trials. We have been told that when it finally comes into the system, that it will be a mainly armoured asset for it‘s superb anti-tank capilbilities. What will happen to the air defence.....who knows with the scrapping of the gun/skyguard and the phase out of the javelin, it looks like the best is going to be lost ot the zips!

 

[birdgunner]

to add to ATT58:

It has been granted that ADATS will eventually be on a LAV base and OC in PQ is doing the trials. We have been told that when it finally comes into the system, that it will be a mainly armoured asset for it‘s superb anti-tank capilbilities. What will happen to the air defence.....who knows with the scrapping of the gun/skyguard and the phase out of the javelin, it looks like the best is going to be lost ot the zips! I guess we better sharpen up on our motar drills and fall into line with our mud brothers

 

[Gunner]

It‘s that bleak is it? When we start chopping capabilities off of the army...it stops being an army.

ADATS as anti-armour? Seems inefficient.

 

[birdgunner]

Not really inefficient, just overlooked! A study was done by the army to see if there was anything out there that could meet the specs required for the army. They wanted something that had mobility, all-weather capability, and had at least an 8 km effective range. The ADATS was the ONLY anti-armour weapon on the planet that met all the specs and then some! I knew that this was true being an operator.

When we were on Resolute Warroir last spring, we were engaging an enemy armoured unit at 8.5 km. The combat team commanders were not amused! Here we were getting the Battle Group‘s recce info to our CP, then looking in the area, aquiring the targets, requesting permission to engage, and engaging all before the commanders could plan out their attack! How‘s that for efficientcy?

 

[Gunner]

Kitch,

My comments about an inefficent anti-tank system for the CF stems from its sophistication as air defence platform.

I certainly agree with your comments about the army needing an all weather and mobile anti armour system but I‘m not sure if we need one to engage targets out to 8 kms away.

If what you say is true...it would seem the army is fudging requirements in order to maintain what we already have...

Having said that, ADATS is versatile as it can be used for LLAD, Anti-armour, and ISTAR.

 

[Yard Ape]

I am wondering if they plan to mount the ADATs on a LAV3 chassis?

Yes.  However, ADATS on a LAV III will be known as MMEV (Multi-Mission Effect Vehicle).  Unlike the current ADATS, the MMEV will have a selection of missile types.  Types (or combination of types) will be loaded based on mission specific threats & roles.

One of the unfortunate guiding principle that the CF is using is that the Army will never deploy to a theater in which we do not already have absolute air superiority.  One day, somebody will die because of this assumption.

Who will own the MMEV?  This has not been decided.  They may all end up in a 1 CMBG Cbt Sp Bn (MMEV Coy, TUA Coy, MGS Sqn), or it could be something entirely different.  I have suggested the idea of direct fire arty regiments.  They would use direct fire to engage ground & air targets with MMEV, 35 mm, & Starstreak (replacing the Javelin).

 

[12alfa]

Can the missle penetrate much armour at 8km, and what kind of armour we talking about? M113 armour or Modern MBt armour, say could it penetrate a t-80 or a t-90?
I have the data on the armour, could you provide in general terms what it will go through? (mm)  (aprox)
I can't see it going through Burlington (chabham) aromur on the M1 or the Challengers, much less the Leclerk,Merk, T-80/90 with active defence systems, but I may be wrong.
It's a ce wpn right, and not ke?

 

[devil39]

My understanding is that the warhead can be a  combined frag and shaped charge.   Good for 900mm of RHA.


http://www.army-technology.com/projects/adats/

 

[12alfa]

That would make most modern tanks safe then, unless a direct hit to the vert top of the turret in a few types.

 

[Yard Ape]

12A,
Don't write-off the potential of the MMEV based on the current ADATS missile.   The intent is to develop a variety of munitions that can be fired by the MMEV, and loads can be configured depending on the threat & mission (as is done on aircraft).

While ADATS only has one missile type, the MMEV may have top-attack (like our current TOW), NLOS missiles, something along the lines of LOSAT (but with better range), or some combination of the above.   It will also still have the option of using the traditional ADATS missiles.

 

[022 AD Gunner]

Well guys....

1. The leopard is a done deal (its gone)

2. 900mm of armour ( hello thats almost 1 m . say by by to all the bad tanks )

3. The LDSH (RC) CO thinks that he will get all of the MMEVs, the RCA has been around longer than him(time to get his head into the fresh air)

4.The MMEV is the way to go, by the time the end run is finished it should have 4+ diffrent missiles.

5. combined with the MGS and TUA and a LAV 3 PL, can you say outstanding combat team


My personal view is that the regiments as a whole are a thing of the past.
The Regimental Combat Team is the way to go, but the units across the board don't want any thing that might get rid of their history >

 

[022 AD Gunner]

: :Embrace the future boys it looks good for the AD ;D >

 

[022 AD Gunner]

If we had any balls we would cut all our ties to the wast of time FD Arty be for they drag us down.
look at the arty school in gagetown 95% of the obese personal are 021 yuk......
The FD side gets their ass kicked each time they meet the AD.......
Go ahead guys pull that string its got a fat pill on the end of it....or walk around with a Tims all day long.......

 

[Gun Shy]

Soon all bird gunrs will be black haters. tankity-tank(zipperheads).

 

[022 AD Gunner]

Well Arty guys time to get on the band wagon and talk it up..
I know it will use the ADATS, Hell-Fire, and CRV-7 msl, as they are set to be tested later this year.
Roomer is a 20km gps missile, and a 20mm gun pod.

MMEV  V1 will be a modified ADATS on a M113 for a total of 34 (2005 to 2009ish)

MMEV  V2 will be the V1 turret on a Lav3 type veh the number(probably 34) is undisclosed at this time (2009ish on)
:skull: :skull:

 

[022 AD Gunner]

lets face it the field Arty is hanging on for dear life getting rid of the m109s taking back the morters trying to fly RPVs and screwing it all up... welcome to MSE or Traffic Tech guys......