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Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread

midget-boyd91

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George Wallace said:
You have lost me.  If they are fighting on their borders, it is not the same as fighting half way around the world.  They can't pack up and go home.  They already are home and are fighting to protect their home.  Casualties will not be a factor.
I was making reference to the earlier post about the South African army.
 

George Wallace

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I am talking about the South African Army.  There is not too much in the way of land and distance between Somalia and South Africa.  Once the violence spreads, South Africa will have a hard time not being involve.
 

midget-boyd91

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George Wallace said:
Once the violence spreads, South Africa will have a hard time not being involve.
I dont think that the violence is going to spread that far. If it spread into too many nations like Malawi which are full of NGOs (and i mean packed full) there would be too much of an outcry and it would be any nation that could deploy would.
 

Thorvald

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As I recall the French Foreign Legion recently deployed to Ethiopia at the request of their government (according to a Military Channel special), anyone know if they are still there?

I'll try to dig up some info.
 

3rd Horseman

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Sine the FFL has had a garrison on the border with Somalia and Ethiopia I would suspect that LOs are in Ethiopia, as in the past.
 
A

aesop081

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midget-boyd91 said:
Soooo umm.. whats going ot happen now??? The UN isn't even able to put very many troops (or at least equipped ones) down in Sudan for humanitarian, and now in roughly the same area andother disaster is unfolding. NATO isn't going to be able to do anything the UN isn't, so are we all going to sit and watch it happen on CNN and CTV, or is someone sitting behind a desk actually going to do something this time?

First off.......The UN cannot put troops into the Sudan because the Sudanese gov will not authorize it. A small contingent from the African Union is there doing what it can.

As for your NATO comment well, the UN failed to deliver in the FRY but looks to me like NATO succeeded where the UN failed.

Why do we need to do somwthing about this in the first place ?  These two countries seem to have decided that they have money to fight each other rather than feed and look after their population.  Why should we risk our collective butts considering how our last attempt at helping turned out.
 

Jay4th

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George,  The South African National Defense Force is not the SADF of pre 1994.  Their policies regarding assistance to outside nations and their bold practice of pre-emptively fighting wars before they reach South Africa is gone too.  Admittedly I only searched for a couple hours on the net after seeing" Blood Diamonds" but I doubt they even have the capability anymore. They can't even protect thieir own farmers from attacks from within.
 
C

CrazyCanuck

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Just in case anybody is wondering here are the links to the concerned countries on the CIA world-fact-book, the military info is a bit thin but it's better than nothing.
South Africa: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html#Military
Ethiopia: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/et.html
Somalia: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/so.html
 

3rd Horseman

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cdnaviator said:
As for your NATO comment well, the UN failed to deliver in the FRY but looks to me like NATO succeeded where the UN failed.

History correction - The UN won the war in Bosnia and Croatia after hard fought battles in summer/fall 95. The war ended in Oct 95, NATO as IFOR arrived in Jan Feb time frame 96 when the war had already ended.
 

warspite

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cdnaviator said:
Why do we need to do something about this in the first place ?  These two countries seem to have decided that they have money to fight each other rather than feed and look after their population.  Why should we risk our collective butts considering how our last attempt at helping turned out.
This is a good question. Why should we?  Sure there's the typical well the horrors of war must be stopped and we must now go and stop them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating wars sufferings as unimportant. But don't we always intervene when this stuff happens... anywhere in the world. Perhaps we should just let Africa stew for a decade or so and then move in to clean up? You know, let them blow off some steam rather than the white man coming back to tell them to stop it and be good.
 
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CrazyCanuck

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If we did just let them kill each other do you think they would ever forgive us? That would give more voice to the idea that all their suffering is the West's fault. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
 

tomahawk6

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I think the decision has been made to let our proxies deal with the Islamic Courts in Somalia.
 

Adrian_888

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warspite said:
This is a good question. Why should we?  Sure there's the typical well the horrors of war must be stopped and we must now go and stop them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating wars sufferings as unimportant. But don't we always intervene when this stuff happens... anywhere in the world. Perhaps we should just let Africa stew for a decade or so and then move in to clean up? You know, let them blow off some steam rather than the white man coming back to tell them to stop it and be good.

I agree, why do we always think that other countries conflicts are our own, war is the most efficient way to resolve a conflict... sounds kind F'ed up, but its true (from a methodical point of view at least).  I believe that unless a majority of people ask for help, then theres no way to justify dying for something like this. Just my opinion of course, you don't have to agree with it.
 

sober_ruski

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The U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and the Security Council denounced the fighting and urged the interim government and Islamists to resume peace talks.
Does anyone else sees the problem with that?
 

old fart

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3rd Horseman said:
History correction - The UN won the war in Bosnia and Croatia after hard fought battles in summer/fall 95. The war ended in Oct 95, NATO as IFOR arrived in Jan Feb time frame 96 when the war had already ended.

IFOR deployed Dec 95 - Jan 96....UN won the war....come on....

I think you will find it was NATO airpower (hate to admit that), can't remember the air campaign name, (and to close to some xmas festivites to look up), that brought the Serbs to the table, resulting the in Dayton Accords.

Nothing whatever to do with the UN...

 

tomahawk6

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Ethiopia deployed combat aircraft for the first time against the Islamic Courts forces.Reminds me of the Italians using planes against the Ethiopians. The IC lack aircraft so the use of jets should enhance the fighting capabilities of the Ethiopian ground forces.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061224/ap_on_re_af/somalia

"After too much patience, the Ethiopian government has taken a self-defensive measure and has begun counterattacking the aggressive extremist forces of the (Islamic council) and foreign terrorist groups," said Ethiopia's foreign affairs spokesman, Solomon Abebe.
 

MarkOttawa

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Why in heaven's name should Somalia be a Canadian priority? War update
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/008498.html

Ethiopia attacks Somalia Islamic council
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061224/ap_on_re_af/somalia_45

Ethiopia launched an attack Sunday on Somalia's powerful Islamic movement, sending fighter jets across the border and bombarding several towns in a major escalation of the violence that threatens to engulf the Horn of Africa.

Ethiopia confirmed the attacks, the first time it has acknowledged that its troops were fighting in Somalia, though witnesses have reported their presence for weeks.

"After too much patience, the Ethiopian government has taken a self-defensive measure and has begun counterattacking the aggressive extremist forces of the (Islamic council) and foreign terrorist groups," said Ethiopia's foreign affairs spokesman, Solomon Abebe.

The Council of Islamic Courts has vowed to drive out troops from neighboring Ethiopia, a largely Christian nation that is providing military support to Somalia's U.N.-backed government.

"They are cowards," said Sheik Mohamoud Ibrahim Suley, an official with Somalia's Council of Islamic Courts. "They are afraid of the face-to-face war and resorted to airstrikes. I hope God will help us shoot down their planes."

But Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf said his forces have gained the upper hand.

"I think they have met a resistance they have never dreamt of before," Yusuf said in brief remarks from Baidoa — the only town the government controls — as the battles began to die down Sunday afternoon...

As Sunday's fighting wore on, the Islamic leadership in the capital, Mogadishu, began broadcasting patriotic songs about Somalia's 1977 war with Ethiopia. Abdi Mohamed Osman, who owns a shop in the capital, said businessman were closing their shops to go and fight.

"We are going to support our brothers on the front line," he said.

The Ethiopian airstrikes were the first against Somalia's Islamic movement. Ethiopia and Somalia have fought two wars over their disputed border in the past 45 years. Islamic court leaders have repeatedly said they want to incorporate ethnic Somalis living in eastern Ethiopia, northeastern Kenya and Djibouti into a Greater Somalia...

Somalia militia seeks foreign fighters
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061224/ap_on_re_af/somalia_38

Islamic militants who want to govern Somalia by the Quran urged foreign Muslims on Saturday to join their war with Ethiopian troops, as heavy fighting broke out Sunday in this volatile nation that threatens to escalate into a regional conflict...

Mark
Ottawa
 

rz350

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Boater said:
What jets do the Ethiopians have?

If I recall, they have Su-27's piloted by Russian or Ukraine pilots that they hire. (Ex RUS or UKR AF pers...but that might of changed, that was from the 1998 war with Ereteria, and they have trained their own pilots for that plane by now)
Also, they fly Mig-17, 21 and 23. Some F-5 as well and they have two Su-25 Frogfoot CAS planes. I would imagine the MiG-17 is limited to a CAS/bombing role against light infantry only, since its very very old and rather dated for anything but strafing infantry.

They have some Ka-50 and Mi-24 attack whirrly's too.
 
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