Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty

[tango22a]

Good one Kat!

It AGAIN all boils down to "damned if I do...damned if I don't". If you do take offence to a yahoo raping a youngster and wax his a$$ then you will be in deeper s##t than he was!

tango22a


One should look at some of the comments made about the Afghanis by John Masters in "Bugles and a Tiger"... " a girl for procreation, a goat if necessary, and a boy for pleasure"

t22a

 

[Edward Campbell]

I have read this thread and I think part of the difficulty with the debate is that we are mixing legality with morality. I think it confuses the issue to demonstrate that it is immoral by pointing to the illegality (did that make sense?)

Prostitution is illegal in many jurisdictions but soldiers are well-known (maybe falsely) for taking part. In that case, I think our moral acceptance trumps the technical legalities.

I agree that making soldiers in-theatre look on with impunity is terrible. There needs to be a mechanism to report. Reporting data helps quantify the problem, when trying to change the culture.

It makes perfect sense and I think you have found the key.

My modest proposal is, essentially legalistic and aimed at Canadians because I do not think you can legislate or regulate morality.

Others seek a moral solution.

 

[mariomike]

One should look at some of the comments made about the Afghanis by John Masters in "Bugles and a Tiger"... " a girl for procreation, a goat if necessary, and a boy for pleasure"

"Iranian scientists have cloned a goat":
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30233385/

 

[TCBF]

I thought you meant ma doña as in this referring to Ma Doña Maria Elena, etc.

- Aha!  Someone else who knows good music when they hear it.  I have the 33 1/3 LP of "here We Go Again" by the Kingston Trio.  My mother bought the record in 1960.  That LP (and many others) found it's way onto cassette and powered many a winter's evening 7.7 mile run.
".. and La Dona Maria Elena Cantrelll."

 

[HItorMiss]

Travis Schouten IMO is a less the reputable source for any claims, it should be noted that Schouten was a replacement for wounded troops and only arrived in theater after the majority of hard combat had ceased and to the best of anyone in his Platoons knowledge he was not involved in any serious combat after he did arrive nor did anyone in his section or Pl witness any of the event he claims.

ANY and I mean ANY accusations or claims made by this individual should be taken with a large dose of salt! I was a member of his company and am friends with many of the person in his section and the Pl. My Info is first hand I am also in contact with members who were party to the investigation (IE gave testimony) and I will not go into what they had to say but suffice it to say they also told NIS that the claims were false.

I have more I would like to say but it would not fit within site guidelines and I will reserve them for if/when I get to meet this person again.

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

What I don't understand is that if the soldier witnessed this event as he claims, why did he not report it immediately?  To someone?  Morality issues aside, ROE aside, why didn't he tell his section 2IC?  Or a buddy or two in the section?  Pl 2IC?  CSM?  Any of the other tps who were there?  Also, there were enough people in Wilson at the time that had this event happened someone else would have known. 

 

[armyvern]

What I don't understand is that if the soldier witnessed this event as he claims, why did he not report it immediately?  To someone?  Morality issues aside, ROE aside, why didn't he tell his section 2IC?  Or a buddy or two in the section?  Pl 2IC?  CSM?  Any of the other tps who were there?  Also, there were enough people in Wilson at the time that had this event happened someone else would have known.

Do you know for a fact that he didn't? I don't.

Isn't that what BOIs are for? I think that's what the BOI into this matter is for anyway --- to determine what actually occured, was said, when it was said etc ...

Perhaps it's just me though, but I'm sure it'll all come out in the wash.

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

Actually I do.  I have had some exposure to the events.  I still don't understand why no one else has ever come forward.

 

[armyvern]

Actually I do.  I have had some exposure to the events.  I still don't understand why no one else has ever come forward.

Thank you for the response - saw your original post before it was edited.

I won't be called before the BOI because I wasn't there. With that, I'll shhhhhhhh (as is supposed to be the way) and let the BOI run it's course.

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

No motive here.  Its just that we all know how fast rumor, gossip, fact, etc travel in a unit no matter where it is.  If something happens it almost impossible for many people not to know about it.  An example.  At CMTC one night two people decided to get intimate in a blue rocket.  The padre happened to be conducting a late night cummunion in the next rocket and heard the whole event.  He told one person the next day in an effort trying to understand the event and its location.  By the end of the next day 90% of the TF in Wainright new about the incident.  Some even knew the participants.  So, when the BOI concludes it will most certainly focus on how these events are reported and list recommendations for the future vice laying blame.  I would suggest though that had these events been reported at the time, something would have been done by those in the CoC at Wilson.   

 

[HItorMiss]

The issue is the BOI did conclude after testimony from those intimately involved in the reported incident. The testimony given led the NIS too conclude that at no time did the events in questions actually take place or at least if they had then no member of the CF actually witnessed them or did a witness come forward and report the incident to his proper CoC.

Now however a member of the media has dug around and found or been told of members of the CF expressing concern that though this event maybe false that other events had occurred. The issue is rumor and fact are hard to distinguish for this. Sure everyone jokes about "Man Love Thursday" but this stems from the Afghan culture of same sex physical touching (Man and man holding hands etc etc). When troops see things like this being from a western culture that is less tolerant of such behaviour jokes and rumors fly. These jokes and rumors invariably make their way back to Canada where they move from that to supposed fact, from there senior members hear such things and express concern that they could be real and that the system is covering it up. Even after this BOI is concluded and it will find that none of this occurred or was reported to the proper chain I am 100% sure that another media person will again hear tell of it and it will flare again.


In this instance where there maybe smoke there is certainly no fire.

 

[GAP]

Sure everyone jokes about "Man Love Thursday" but this stems from the Afghan culture of same sex physical touching (Man and man holding hands etc etc). When troops see things like this being from a western culture that is less tolerant of such behaviour jokes and rumors fly.

We had similar issues that may have cost lives because of homophobic attitudes (although I don't know for sure). In Vietnamese culture it is quite acceptable for men to walk along holding hands. Not so with the American forces who were mentoring/working with them. There were some really great ARVN's, but for the most part they were poorly led and paid.

 

[mariomike]

OTTAWA – Canadian soliders have been explicitly ordered to stop or report incidents of Afghan soldiers or interpreters raping young boys, the defence minister says.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/702212

 

[The Bread Guy]

...in the attached article:

"We require that any wrongdoing that a Canadian soldier would see in Afghanistan or anywhere would be no less than the expectation that we would have in Canada — to do the right thing, to prevent, to pre-empt, to intervene."

especially when compared to the CDS's statement in a proposed letter to the editor:

"While the responsibility for complying with their national and international legal obligations rests with the Afghans, I expect members of the Canadian Forces to bring breaches of the law by Afghan security forces to the attention of the appropriate authorities."

I'm sickened by the practice, but based on what smarter, more experienced folks than I have to say - including this quote from another forum elsewhere:

“It’s one thing to insist on elimination of age old custom when the issue is overt and acknowledged (female status) and yet another when the issue is denied and hidden (pederasty). Try pressuring one of your friends to stop doing something they hide but you know they do; then try to get a Police Officer to accost them about it.”

I hope the Minister and Government are prepared to stand behind the troops 100% should something nasty happen in the event of preventing, pre-empting, or intervening now that the Minister has said it out loud.

 

[BlueJingo]

OTTAWA – Canadian soliders have been explicitly ordered to stop or report incidents of Afghan soldiers or interpreters raping young boys, the defence minister says.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/702212

Is the Defence Minister an Army.ca subscriber?

 

[tango22a]

Am presently rereading "Bugles and a Tiger" by John Masters.

He states:

"Lawrence noted the tendency of Arabs to homosexuality. It was the same among the Pathans "A woman for business, a boy for pleasure, a goat for choice" is an old Pathan proverb,"

Also:

From Zakmi Dil a famous Pathan song the words "There's a boy across the river with  a bottom like a peach, but, alas, I cannot swim."

.... Both quotes from John Masters "Bugles and a Tiger' dated 1956, but he was writing about occurrences during late 1930s.


This is what we have to deal with, and hasn't changed in hundreds of years.



tango22a

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... yesterday (29 Sept 09) via Hansard:

Mr. Jack Harris (St. John's East, NDP):  Mr. Speaker, the government's handling of the allegations of sexual abuse of young boys by the Afghan national army on our Canadian Forces base is a national shame.  The narrow scope of the military's NIS report amounted to a whitewash and said that the chain of command did not know anything about it. However, we now know that this is not the case. Now there is corroboration that the military brass knew about this as far back as 2007.  Canadians deserve to know, how long has the minister had knowledge of this tolerance of sexual abuse in Afghanistan?

Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, I am quite surprised by the tone and tenor of the hon. member's comments.  The Canadian Forces take these allegations very seriously. They have been given clear direction to report, stop, prevent any abuse they would see.  It is absolutely intolerable in this country as it would be in Afghanistan. To suggest that an independent arm's-length body like the National Investigation Service of the Canadian Forces would come up with a whitewash or is covering something up is absolutely disgusting as well.

Mr. Jack Harris (St. John's East, NDP):  Mr. Speaker, the sexual abuse of young boys is a serious matter.  There are now reports that military police were told not to intervene in such matters, and they had the belief that if they were to intervene they would not be supported by the chain of command.  We have a grossly inadequate NIS report and a board of inquiry report sitting with the military since May. The military should not be investigating itself in these matters.  Will the minister order an independent inquiry? What does he have to hide in not doing so?

Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, to suggest that sexual abuse against small boys, or anyone for that matter, is intolerable is something on which the member and I can agree. But to suggest somehow that the Canadian Forces or the independent bodies are complicit in covering something up is also intolerable. The member should know better, having practised law.  These arm's-length bodies are there to get to the bottom, to be transparent, to be open, to gather information. Rather than cast spurious allegations on the floor of the House of Commons, he should wait for that board of inquiry to report.

*  *  *

 

[mariomike]

Am presently rereading "Bugles and a Tiger" by John Masters.

I was reading a bit of this one online: "Sexual Encounters in the Middle East: The British, the French and the Arabs" by Derek Hopwood:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=AnTjEdFKTbMC&dq=sexual+encounter+in+the+middle+east&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=hqDDStfdKobDlAfDhajeBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=sexual%20encounter%20in%20the%20middle%20east&f=false
"..you can never understand a people well enough...until you are in bed with a woman. It is a time when people get over the masks they are wearing, and become normal human beings".

 

[TCBF]

... At CMTC one night two people decided to get intimate in a blue rocket.  The padre happened to be conducting a late night cummunion in the next rocket ...   

- Methinks a blue rocket is a piss-poor choice of a venue for a communion - day or night.

 

[PMedMoe]

- Methinks a blue rocket is a piss-poor choice of a venue for a communion - day or night.

I think "communion" may have been used as a euphemism here. 

Me thinks a blue rocket would be a piss-poor choice for intimacy, too.  :-X