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Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

Gunplumber

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I did a quick search and it seems there was an auction in the area a couple of weeks ago and there were surplus police car lights. Why, why would these be sold? They should just destroy them.
 

MilEME09

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Gunplumber said:
I did a quick search and it seems there was an auction in the area a couple of weeks ago and there were surplus police car lights. Why, why would these be sold? They should just destroy them.

Agreed they should never be publicly sold, sell directly to movie prop companies maybe but that's it.
 

Retired AF Guy

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Jarnhamar said:
Like many on the forum I think if I seen an RCMP officer in distress or waving their arms or whatever I'd run to them to try and help. In this case if it was the shooter I'd have gotten shot. It's strange that the RCMP chose to alert people via Twitter but seemingly not through the Cell phone alert system. I don't have twitter or facebook so I would have missed the tweet.

Couldn't they have used TV/Radio to broadcast warnings?? They do it for extreme weather warnings, etc?

Staff edit to fix quote box.
 

lenaitch

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Eye In The Sky said:
Unfortunately, I think there is some misinformation/misunderstanding on the Emergency Alert system.  The RCMP, to my knowledge, don't have direct access.

This website has some good info on the system in general:  https://www.alertready.ca/

There is a good basic description under the Responsibilities tab.  From the FAQ tab:  About Alert Ready, have a read over the About Alert Ready, Who Sends Emergency Alerts and  What types of emergency alerts are issued via Alert Ready? FAQs.

This article suggests that the RCMP do not access the Alert system directly; unfortunately, many CBC story commentators don't seem to know or understand this.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/local/nova-scotia-was-ready-to-send-emergency-alert-amidst-active-shooter-but-rcmp-didnt-request-it-440649/

Also, the NS EMO system 'adminsters' the provincial 911 system and offices.  I am at a loss to understand how the "province/Premiere' can say they didn't really know what was going on; the initial calls for fire, gunshots, etc late Saturday were called into 911 and the RCMP responded. 

https://beta.novascotia.ca/government/emergency-management-office

I think the RCMP and other first responders had an extremely difficult job to do, some of it at night with a suspect disguised as 'one of them'.  I am not happy seeing comments online about people second-guessing the RCMP for not triggering the Alert system.  I've said a few times;  imagine the public response to an active shooter, dressed as RCMP, with RCMP all over the area?  Imagine all the people phoning into 911 to report they saw an RCMP car?  I've also seen a few comments online about the people who would have 'taken the *@*@)@ out myself if I'd of known it was a fake mountie', who would have jumped in trucks with shotguns and crossbows in an attempt to 'help'.

A tough situation, and yes questions should be asked in the spirit of 'what can we learn from this, to improve SOPs', etc but...I am disappointed to see the Premiere without hesitation simply state "it's wasn't the government, it was the RCMP".  I think that is in very, very poor taste.  No one could have predicted what was going to happen;  how do you prepare for the "has never happened in the history of Canada before' type events?

Good post.  I wasn't aware that the provincial EMO operated the 911 system; in Ontario it is the OPP and municipal police services.  While the OPP 'houses' the provincial alert system, access is the same for everybody and the protocols sound similar to NS, which makes sense since it is a nation-wide system.  It seems the protocols regarding approvals, text, translation, etc. might not be all that responsive to dynamic situations.  I would think if a message went out, much of the information might have become dated very quickly.

I'm not sure how the interpret the comments of the Premier.  Earlier he said that "he" wasn't notified in the night.  I've never quite understood why agencies feel the need to notify elected officials about events unless they need action/decision beyond the normal scope of a government department or figure they might.  Clearly, the 911 part of their EMO knew in real time, but that's what they do.  Cripes, in Ontario, if they had to notify the Premier every time there was a multiple shooting - obviously not to this scale - the poor lad would never sleep.

As said, time for that in due course.

I do kinda feel for the CrimOps C/Supt.  He obviously has to struggle with what he can say, but he clearly seems out of his comfort zone.  Public speaking doesn't come easy for everyone.
 

dapaterson

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lenaitch said:
I do kinda feel for the CrimOps C/Supt.  He obviously has to struggle with what he can say, but he clearly seems out of his comfort zone.  Public speaking doesn't come easy for everyone.

I suspect he's dealing with hard emotions while trying to communicate while knowing that much of the information he knows is still part of ongoing investigations and can't be shared, even though it would respond to the question being asked.
 

lenaitch

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Jarnhamar said:
I wonder if there is going to be a discussion of police/ems/military uniforms and/or replica vehicles being in the possession of civilians.

I would think it would be tough to craft regulations around this.  Some jurisdictions, like California and the UK, regulate uniform and vehicle appearance but I think it just applies to legitimate agencies, not irregular use.  They could go the copyright route but that really complicates things for the departments, and the legal recourse to that is civil.  Other than reports of people seeing his 'fake cruiser' sitting on private property, I don't think I've read anything about him seen driving it on public roads prior to last weekend.  If so, I think that would be a solid case of 'personating a peace officer'.

A stripped RCMP cruiser is a white sedan.  The graphics are readily constructable, although it will be interesting how he obtained the door logo/RCMP emblem, which I believe is copyrighted (but there is a grey/black market for everything it seems).  Disposing of surplus property is a way to recover costs, but, ya, selling red/blue emergency lights at an open auction is a problem.  They should pop the coloured lenses.
 

lenaitch

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dapaterson said:
I suspect he's dealing with hard emotions while trying to communicate while knowing that much of the information he knows is still part of ongoing investigations and can't be shared, even though it would respond to the question being asked.

Probably quite true.  Many departments will use a media relations spokesperson.  They are often more comfortable/experienced at it, and can only speak to the information they have been given by the investigators, so there is a degree of 'plausible deniability', but everyone wants to hear from the 'brass hats'.
 

dapaterson

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Dressing in CAF or RCMP uniforms is already a criminal code offence, to the best of my knowledge.
 

Haggis

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dapaterson said:
Dressing in CAF or RCMP uniforms is already a criminal code offence, to the best of my knowledge.
CCC s. 419 covers military uniforms and medals etc. worn without lawful authority.  It is a reverse onus charge in that the accused must prove lawful use and entitlement and has been discussed to death on the Walts, Posers and Wannabe's thread.

CCC s. 130(1) covers police personation as police officers are considered peace officers. No reverse onus there.
 

MilEME09

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New details emerging, the shooters girlfriend is the person who tipped police that he was using a police uniform and replica vehicle. Started as a domestic dispute, the girlfriend was tied up, assaulted, escaped and hid. After she escaped he went back to a house party and started the rampage. Also revealed he stole the service pistol of the RCMP officer after killing her.
 

chrisf

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lenaitch said:
although it will be interesting how he obtained the door logo/RCMP emblem, which I believe is copyrighted (but there is a grey/black market for everything it seems).

A cricut machine is under $300, Costco has them cheap sometimes... you can make up whatever decals you like at home.

You could probably even do it with paint and a brush if you're on a budget, may not be noticable from a distance.

Disposing of surplus property is a way to recover costs, but, ya, selling red/blue emergency lights at an open auction is a problem.  They should pop the coloured lenses.

You can just buy them new if you like, they're not controlled in any way... they're just lights.

Our local cops have an unmarked ford focus... the "lights" are two small red and blue flashes mounted to the underside of the passenger side sun shade...

You could easily rig it up with a pair of LED button lights in strobe mode.

As frightening as it may be, not really sure theres any way to actually prevent someone from making a replica police car in their garage.
 

NavyShooter

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So....that begs the question - what is the reasonable solution?

If a 'probable/possible' police cruiser comes up behind me with lights flashing - do I call 911 and ask the dispatcher if it's a real police car before I pull over?

Do I pull over and hope for the best - which now can possibly include the worst?

What is 'reasonable' now in a world where something this unreasonable happened?
 

mariomike

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NavyShooter said:
So....that begs the question - what is the reasonable solution?

If a 'probable/possible' police cruiser comes up behind me with lights flashing - do I call 911 and ask the dispatcher if it's a real police car before I pull over?

Do I pull over and hope for the best - which now can possibly include the worst?

What is 'reasonable' now in a world where something this unreasonable happened?

For reference to the discussion,

Mar 30, 2020

Fake Police Are Pulling Drivers Over During The Stay-At-Home Directive. Here’s How To Avoid Being A Victim

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshmax/2020/03/30/fake-police-are-pulling-drivers-over-during-stay-at-home-directiveheres-how-to-get-around-it/#188dfdbc34d3
 

BeyondTheNow

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NavyShooter said:
So....that begs the question - what is the reasonable solution?

If a 'probable/possible' police cruiser comes up behind me with lights flashing - do I call 911 and ask the dispatcher if it's a real police car before I pull over?

Do I pull over and hope for the best - which now can possibly include the worst?

What is 'reasonable' now in a world where something this unreasonable happened?

A little helpful for readers; this is Ontario though.

... On the way, you can call 911 to confirm it’s a real police officer behind you. Mobile emergency calls to 911 are exempted from Ontario’s distracted driving laws.

Once stopped, lock your doors, open your window just a crack and ask for police identification — which you can verify with the police dispatcher by phone... 

Full article:

https://www.thestar.com/autos/2015/04/24/is-that-unmarked-car-signaling-you-to-stop-really-a-cop.html



 

Kilted

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Jarnhamar said:
I wonder if there is going to be a discussion of police/ems/military uniforms and/or replica vehicles being in the possession of civilians.  I personally think the uniform and vehicle made this POS way more deadly than any kind of gun he could have possessed.


This reminds me of an incident a few years ago when I saw a guy walking around the main st of my town wearing cadpat with no headdress on. I figured that he was from the BMQ co-op in town. So I walk up to him (he was facing away from me at this point) and told him to put a headdress on. He turned around and gave me a deer in the headlights look. When I looked for his name tag, which wasn't there, then I realized that there was no place for a nametag and the pockets were wrong. I realized that he was wearing the fake cadpat that they use to sell. He then walked away from me and I called the police. They didn't end up charging him, because he was special needs, but they told him not to wear it anymore.
 

Baz

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Screen-Shot-2020-04-23-at-12.32.13-PM-1.png


There will be an online tribute to the victims this evening.  Details can be found at https://heartcolchester.ca/.  The site also contains links to many of the active relief funds for the families.
 

OldSolduer

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MilEME09 said:
New details emerging, the shooters girlfriend is the person who tipped police that he was using a police uniform and replica vehicle. Started as a domestic dispute, the girlfriend was tied up, assaulted, escaped and hid. After she escaped he went back to a house party and started the rampage. Also revealed he stole the service pistol of the RCMP officer after killing her.

According to behavioural profilers there are signs that precede the attacks far in advance.

The neighbors/coworkers etc may say “he was a quiet guy but a bit off” or similar.

I bet he had an obsession with weapons and ammunition. He may have even stockpiled it.
And he didn’t just “snap”. This was in the works for a long while.

I’m not surprised about the assault on the girlfriend either.
 

mariomike

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Hamish Seggie said:
I bet he had an obsession with weapons and ammunition.

As far as this investigation is concerned, I just know what I read in the papers.

But, that is an interesting point of view.
 
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