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Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

Haggis

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Brihard said:
Conditional discharge for common assault. I doubt the prohibition would have still been in effect. That said, I’m not going to opine on what the likely legal status was of anything he used or possessed. It’s worth waiting for facts on that one.
Crap!  Missed that.  Quite true.  Situations like this would completely justify the lifetime background checks in C-71.
 

Scott

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So I might as well weigh in. I live five km from where the pedestrian, a lady I had seen walking a lot, was gunned down. I would have been on a bike ride to the park she was killed by and back had it not been for Twitter.

I’m curious about the rather large time gap in tweets. Because this had the makings of something more than ordinary when the first tweet was sent, and they’ve stayed that Twitter was their go to. 

The emergency alert question from the provinces end has been satisfied for me. The rcmp have to make the request. So far as I know, the only way the “province” would have a live feed would be from shubie radio (willing to be disagreed with)

I am completely fine with waiting for the questions to be addressed. They’re rather bottom shelf now. But I know the answers will come. And I already have pretty good knowledge that this is going to read like no film you’ve ever imagined.

I knew three victims and my mothers whole side of the family knows multiple victims. I also know many of the firefighters in the area, having volunteered with them. I grew up in stewiacke and roamed every single area mentioned. It’s surreal. That’s all I can say. My phone has been off the frigging hook.

One point of pure glee: dr strang saying that all the reporters from outside the province can get fucked, you’re not coming. 
 

Scott

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Here’s the other bit I know about the emergency alerts: I got the one for Covid 19 on both my personal phone (TELUS) and my work phone (bell).

The TELUS message came in pretty much the time it was released. The bell phones message did not arrive for some hours. I just don’t think it’s a flawless system, but it would have to be used first in order to discuss failings.
 

brihard

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Scott- words fail me. I'll simply say that you have my sympathies for the loss your your neighbours and community members. I can't imagine what it's gotta be like living through this as someone whose own community is directly impacted and disrupted. Please take care of yourself and your people.
 

Scott

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Brihard, both of our communities have been impacted. Thank you, and to you as well. Most small bit diverse and welcoming community I’ve ever had the pleasure of getting to know.

I’m fine. I just moved to the area in mid February. But have been in and out of the area for years to ski.

I won’t let that cocksucker ruin my perception of the community, or my space.

Everyone responded as they could. There are answers required. And they will come. I’m imploring patience on all angles, including the political ones. This is not a partisan issue. This is an event so big and complex it has or will completely tax every single one of our resources.
 

lenaitch

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Scott said:
So I might as well weigh in. I live five km from where the pedestrian, a lady I had seen walking a lot, was gunned down. I would have been on a bike ride to the park she was killed by and back had it not been for Twitter.

I’m curious about the rather large time gap in tweets. Because this had the makings of something more than ordinary when the first tweet was sent, and they’ve stayed that Twitter was their go to. 

The emergency alert question from the provinces end has been satisfied for me. The rcmp have to make the request. So far as I know, the only way the “province” would have a live feed would be from shubie radio (willing to be disagreed with)

I am completely fine with waiting for the questions to be addressed. They’re rather bottom shelf now. But I know the answers will come. And I already have pretty good knowledge that this is going to read like no film you’ve ever imagined.

I knew three victims and my mothers whole side of the family knows multiple victims. I also know many of the firefighters in the area, having volunteered with them. I grew up in stewiacke and roamed every single area mentioned. It’s surreal. That’s all I can say. My phone has been off the frigging hook.

One point of pure glee: dr strang saying that all the reporters from outside the province can get ****ed, you’re not coming.

Condolences for your losses.  Strangely, these types of events can both tear apart a community and bring it together.

I agree that there will be time enough for response reviews; RCMP internal, provincial and/or perhaps even a formal inquiry, but I doubt everything will be known before the investigation is deemed complete and the Coroner/Medical Examiner has signed off.  It's a valid question whether every tool in the box was used, but there might well be valid reasons; perhaps imperfect, but still considered reasonable at the time.

It's relatively easy to view things 'at 30,000 feet', but at the time and on the ground it must have seemed to be a confusing mess.  Most likely a handful of scattered on-duty coppers late on a Saturday night, desperate and seemingly disparate calls coming into possibly multiple 911 call takers until some kind of clarity emerges to someone through the fog.  No senior command staff working, perhaps one or two supervisors.  The police don't completely know what transpired today, several days after, so I'm wondering why people expect they had any better knowledge when it was unfolding.

They are in the middle of a major criminal investigation.  Unfortunately many, including some media, expect these things to be conducted in a glass house.

My experience with police internal reviews is less than stellar.  There is little to no formal process, at least in my former Force, resulting in a lack of forthrightness, since few members are willing to stand up and pass open comment on command decisions.  If there is a record, everybody is concerned about civil and criminal repercussions and if there is no written record, then the media and lawyers figure it's a cover-up.  If charges are laid it gets worse.  Formal public inquiries are arguably the same since everybody is lawered-up.

No doubt some things will eventually be done differently.
 

Baz

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12 Wing just did a flypast over Cole Harbour for the victims.  Circled Cst Stevenson's house which is near mine.

Photo is by Tomy Dresdel via GDMS-C.
 

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Eye In The Sky

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Eaglelord17 said:
Apparently this scumbag was using his fake cruiser to pull over people and shoot them dead.

I am really questioning why the police didn't use the emergency alert system on our phones with this shooting(s). This is one of the few times where I can see it possibly having saved lives as it could have let them know not to be pulled over. Not much the victims could have really done in that situation, they did what they were supposed to (pull over when the sirens come on) and by time they would have realized anything was wrong it would be too late.

Unfortunately, I think there is some misinformation/misunderstanding on the Emergency Alert system.  The RCMP, to my knowledge, don't have direct access.

This website has some good info on the system in general:  https://www.alertready.ca/

There is a good basic description under the Responsibilities tab.  From the FAQ tab:  About Alert Ready, have a read over the About Alert Ready, Who Sends Emergency Alerts and  What types of emergency alerts are issued via Alert Ready? FAQs.

This article suggests that the RCMP do not access the Alert system directly; unfortunately, many CBC story commentators don't seem to know or understand this.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/local/nova-scotia-was-ready-to-send-emergency-alert-amidst-active-shooter-but-rcmp-didnt-request-it-440649/

Also, the NS EMO system 'adminsters' the provincial 911 system and offices.  I am at a loss to understand how the "province/Premiere' can say they didn't really know what was going on; the initial calls for fire, gunshots, etc late Saturday were called into 911 and the RCMP responded. 

https://beta.novascotia.ca/government/emergency-management-office

I think the RCMP and other first responders had an extremely difficult job to do, some of it at night with a suspect disguised as 'one of them'.  I am not happy seeing comments online about people second-guessing the RCMP for not triggering the Alert system.  I've said a few times;  imagine the public response to an active shooter, dressed as RCMP, with RCMP all over the area?  Imagine all the people phoning into 911 to report they saw an RCMP car?  I've also seen a few comments online about the people who would have 'taken the *@*@)@ out myself if I'd of known it was a fake mountie', who would have jumped in trucks with shotguns and crossbows in an attempt to 'help'.

A tough situation, and yes questions should be asked in the spirit of 'what can we learn from this, to improve SOPs', etc but...I am disappointed to see the Premiere without hesitation simply state "it's wasn't the government, it was the RCMP".  I think that is in very, very poor taste.  No one could have predicted what was going to happen;  how do you prepare for the "has never happened in the history of Canada before' type events?
 

Eye In The Sky

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Scott said:
So I might as well weigh in. I live five km from where the pedestrian, a lady I had seen walking a lot, was gunned down. I would have been on a bike ride to the park she was killed by and back had it not been for Twitter.

I’m curious about the rather large time gap in tweets. Because this had the makings of something more than ordinary when the first tweet was sent, and they’ve stayed that Twitter was their go to. 

The emergency alert question from the provinces end has been satisfied for me. The rcmp have to make the request. So far as I know, the only way the “province” would have a live feed would be from shubie radio (willing to be disagreed with)

I am completely fine with waiting for the questions to be addressed. They’re rather bottom shelf now. But I know the answers will come. And I already have pretty good knowledge that this is going to read like no film you’ve ever imagined.

I knew three victims and my mothers whole side of the family knows multiple victims. I also know many of the firefighters in the area, having volunteered with them. I grew up in stewiacke and roamed every single area mentioned. It’s surreal. That’s all I can say. My phone has been off the frigging hook.

One point of pure glee: dr strang saying that all the reporters from outside the province can get fucked, you’re not coming.

Very sorry for the loss to you, your family....everyone grieving from this. 

 

daftandbarmy

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Evacuation centre peppered with bullets morning of Nova Scotia mass shooting

Nova Scotia’s police watchdog is investigating why two uniformed officers were shooting in the direction of a fire hall in Onslow being used as a place of refuge the morning of the shooting rampage.

In a statement to Global News, Nova Scotia Serious Incident Response Team (SiRT) interim director Pat Curran said the team is investigating the discharge of firearms by two RCMP officers near the Onslow-Belmont Fire Hall about 10:30 a.m. on Sunday morning.

“At this point we don’t what they were shooting at,” Curran said. “We do know that the shooter was not in that area at that time.”
The Onslow Belmont Fire Hall is located about 25 kilometres east of Portapique, N.S., where a gunman began his deadly rampage that spanned over 12 hours and killed at least 22 people this past weekend.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6853581/nova-scotia-shooting-onslow-fire-hall-bullets/?fbclid=IwAR3DWNnBrxe6hVr65VJKPG8IST40SZnWw2VnQANBL3l356A1fF-WN9_RuAo

 

Scott

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Yeah. A few people shook up over that one!

There are more rumours and unconfirmed/unreported stories that will make you simply shake your head.

I’m not sharing because it might be just rumour. Unfortunately, 90% of the news I get has all been true.

I’m good. Better this morning for sure.
 

Haggis

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Brihard said:
That said, I’m not going to opine on what the likely legal status was of anything he used or possessed. It’s worth waiting for facts on that one.

As announced at the RCMP presser yesterday, the attacker did not have a firearms licence.  So, his guns were not legally possessed.  I'll reserve more comments for the Gun Control 2.0 thread IOT not derail this one.
 

Old Sweat

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And from out of the blue, or at least the Task & Purpose online newsletter, comes this story that states two of the victims had lived in New Mexico. It is reproduced under the Fair Comments provisions of the Copyright Act.


Navy vet and wife believed to be among victims of Nova Scotia mass shooting that left at least 22 dead
SCOTT TURNER, ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL16 HOURS AGO

A former Albuquerque couple appears to be among the victims of a mass shooting in a rural Nova Scotia community that has left at least 22 dead.

The home belonging to John Zahl and his wife, Joanne Thomas, was found burned following a rampage over the weekend in the town of Portapique, according to The Associated Press. Officials said the suspect, identified as 51-year-old Gabriel Wortman, was shot and later died on Sunday. It was Canada’s worst mass shooting, and authorities are still searching for a motive.

Zahl retired from FedEx, and Thomas was a former University of New Mexico employee.

Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham noted the deaths in a Twitter post. She said her prayers go out to the couple’s family and loved ones.

“Sadly, we’ve learned that two former New Mexicans are presumed victims of the recent Nova Scotia mass shooting,” Lujan Grisham said late Tuesday. “John Zahl and Elizabeth Joanne Thomas raised their family in Albuquerque before retiring to Joanne’s native Canada.”

Zahl’s daughter, Jennifer Zahl Bruland, told the Journal that Canadian authorities have not yet identified her father and stepmother as victims in the rampage, but she was expecting them to do so Wednesday.

“We’re just starting to process this,” she said. “The Royal Canadian Mounted Police has been very good to us. They’ve been staying in touch and keeping us informed.”


Justin Zahl, the couple’s grandson, frantically called police after he saw that his grandparents’ two-story log cabin had been set on fire, with their two cars in the driveway, according to AP. The news organization reported that Zahl had been told his grandparents’ bodies were likely in the ruins.

Bruland said her father and stepmother had lived in Albuquerque for 30 years and moved to Nova Scotia in 2017.

“They were very dear people and very involved in Albuquerque,” Gene Valdes, a friend of the couple, told the Journal. He said the couple visited him and his wife, Dorian Dodson, in Tucson in February and kept in constant contact.

“We were best friends for 50 years,” Valdes said. He said he knew something was wrong when the couple’s grandson, Justin, called Valdes and his wife after the rampage asking them if they heard from his grandparents.

“He called us at 4 a.m. Sunday and off and on after that,” Valdes said.

Valdes said Zahl, 69, and Thomas, 58, should have been on a cruise at the time of the shooting, but the COVID-19 pandemic forced a change in plans.

He said the two had fallen in love with Nova Scotia, calling it “idyllic,” despite the harsh winters.

“But they were talking about selling their house and moving back to the U.S.,” he said.

Valdes and Zahl served in the U.S. Navy together. They were Russian translators.

He said Zahl and Thomas married in 1985 and settled in Albuquerque, where Zahl worked for FedEx and later worked part time for Albuquerque Public Schools. He also coached soccer.


Thomas, a Canadian citizen, worked at Eye Associates, the University of New Mexico and Health Care Service Corp. before she retired.

“They were very active in a local Presbyterian church where John was an elder,” Valdes said. Even though they joined a church in Nova Scotia, he said they still watched a livestream of church services in Albuquerque.

“I was talking to them on Easter,” his daughter said. “They were watching the livestream then, and had to get off the phone. They had a Zoom meeting with some of their friends.”

She called her father and stepmother “genuine people.”

“If they asked you how you were, they meant it,” Bruland said. “They cared about their friends in New Mexico.”

She said the family hopes people will remember them for “their kindness, laughter and joy,” instead of the tragedy.

She said her father had four children, another daughter, Sarah Zahl, and sons Andrew and Daniel. The couple raised two grandsons, Riley, who lives in Albuquerque, and Justin, who lives in Nova Scotia.
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=Eye In The Sky]

I think the RCMP and other first responders had an extremely difficult job to do, some of it at night with a suspect disguised as 'one of them'.  I am not happy seeing comments online about people second-guessing the RCMP for not triggering the Alert system.  I've said a few times;  imagine the public response to an active shooter, dressed as RCMP, with RCMP all over the area?  Imagine all the people phoning into 911 to report they saw an RCMP car?  I've also seen a few comments online about the people who would have 'taken the *@*@)@ out myself if I'd of known it was a fake mountie', who would have jumped in trucks with shotguns and crossbows in an attempt to 'help'.

[/quote]

I've been thinking about this. I'm normally not too curious about this stuff right off the bat (reactions, lessons learned) but the more I think about this the more it seems like a huge issue.

Like many on the forum I think if I seen an RCMP officer in distress or waving their arms or whatever I'd run to them to try and help. In this case if it was the shooter I'd have gotten shot. It's strange that the RCMP chose to alert people via Twitter but seemingly not through the Cell phone alert system. I don't have twitter or facebook so I would have missed the tweet.

A mass alert could have caused a pretty big panic. It would also have maybe stopped people from opening their door to someone banging on it (shouting RCMP open up) and it may have prevented some travel.

I'm sure a lot of people have these fantasies of grabbing guns to go and help. I put the probability of them making good on that promise the same as the CDS giving me the 20 or so "CTO days" I've built up working while on leave.

I'm pro-RCMP while believing they should be held to a high standard when they make mistakes (lost firearms, accidental shootings, harassment etc..). The same way I view the CAF.
I hope the decision to either not use the alert system, or, figure out why it didn't get sent out sooner/took so long gets thoroughly land transparently looked at.



Using the uniform of police (or EMS or military) is such a powerful multiplier for causing chaos. An actual police vehicle is next level.
Considering the PM immediately brought up his platform on gun control and reiterated about banning assault weapons I wonder if there is going to be a discussion of police/ems/military uniforms and/or replica vehicles being in the possession of civilians.  I personally think the uniform and vehicle made this POS way more deadly than any kind of gun he could have possessed.

The last time I was deployed there was a concern/threat at one point of stolen US uniforms and infiltrators using them. It really changes things.
 

mariomike

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Jarnhamar said:
I wonder if there is going to be a discussion of police/ems/military uniforms and/or replica vehicles being in the possession of civilians.  I personally think the uniform and vehicle made this POS way more deadly than any kind of gun he could have possessed.

Speaking of vehicles, I've seen plenty of used police cars and ambulances. But, I have never seen a retired UPS truck "package car".

Apparently, they do not exist.
 

MilEME09

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It is almost in the same realm as insider attacks in Afghanistan, like many of you have pointed out, people trusted the uniform, and all of a sudden that trust turned deadly. I am sure RCMP were relieved and horrified at the same time that the shooter wasn't actually an RCMP officer. The man didnt have a PAL, I would love to know what guns he had, and we all want to know how he obtained them.
 

mariomike

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Speaking of fakery,

Alleged Fake Cop Ran Own 'Police Station,' Interrogated 'Suspects'
https://www.foxnews.com/story/alleged-fake-cop-ran-own-police-station-interrogated-suspects

HEMPSTEAD, N.Y. – Henry Terry had all the right accessories to impersonate a police officer, prosecutors say: authentic-looking uniforms, a car with lights and sirens, a pair of handcuffs. But Terry took it a step further, setting up a personal police station where he kept records of possible crimes and sometimes interrogated "suspects" who were handcuffed to a chair, said Suffolk County District Attorney Thomas Spota.

To convince civilians he was a police officer, Terry bought badges, uniforms, handcuffs and other law enforcement paraphernalia from catalogs and the Internet.

If you're gonna Walt...


 

FSTO

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How many people, especially in the Atlantic region will second guess the police car that attempts to stop them? Will they be thinking, "Is this guy a true cop? Its happened before, its it happening again?"

There will need to be a real campaign from the emergency services community to re-assure the public that they can trust the police forces again.
Its not the police's fault that this happened but they'll have to pick up the pieces, bloody well sucks all around.

 
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