Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response

[Loachman]

Teachers don't want to be armed? Police think that that's a bad idea?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/ohio-concealed-weapons-sheriff/index.html

http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/hundreds-of-teachers-sign-up-for-free-gun-training-in-ohio

http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/local/gwinnett-county-sheriff-s-office-offering-gun-training-course-to/article_818526ab-9fce-55d8-826e-36b82fb33db6.html

 

[Loachman]

And my last post for the night.

Take some time to go through https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/24/policy-and-consequence-broward-county-sheriff-union-president-notes-promise-program-and-consequences/ and the links embedded, especially https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/966854507744374784.html

 

[mariomike]

Perhaps we can discuss gun politics in our 157-page "The Great Gun Control Debate".
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/28692.3900.html

Our Emergency Services forum can be for the discussion of emergency operations at Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) scenes.
https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&ei=FyOWWuXxL5K3zwK00InoBQ&q=%22Active+Shooter+%2F+Hostile%22&oq=%22Active+Shooter+%2F+Hostile%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12..0i22i30k1.5611.37958.0.40660.18.13.0.0.0.0.140.1264.9j4.13.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..7.2.258...0i5i30k1.0.U7UWJslFenM

I believe that is why this thread was split from "The Great Gun Control Debate" in Politics, to the Emergency Services forum in the first place.

 

 

[Kat Stevens]

Hopefully, the intent of arming a percentage of teachers isn't about sending them out on seek and destroy missions in the hallways. I hope it would be about bunkering down in the classroom, and protecting the kids inside it. I would think a shooter would think twice if he was uncertain about the reception on the other side of that door. This is not to say I necessarily agree with the idea, but I can see some merit to it.

Edited to fix up my last sentence, for clarity.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hopefully, the intent of arming a percentage of teachers isn't about sending them out on seek and destroy missions in the hallways. I would thin it would be about bunkering down in the classroom, and protecting the kids inside it. I would think a shooter would think twice if he was uncertain about the reception on the other side of that door. This is not to say I necessarily agree with the idea, but I can see some merit to it.

Professional soldiers aren't even safe with the weapons we train them to use full time.

Arm millions of teachers? The deaths and injuries from accidental classroom discharges (ACDs) etc would dwarf school shooting victims within a year.

 

[dapaterson]

Professional soldiers aren't even safe with the weapons we train them to use full time.

Arm millions of teachers? The deaths and injuries from accidental classroom discharges (ACDs) etc would dwarf school shooting victims within a year.

"Accidental".  Yes.  Accidental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZMoB6ms2mE

 

[FJAG]

"Accidental".  Yes.  Accidental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZMoB6ms2mE

:rofl:

 

[Haggis]

Not even cops are entirely safe with guns.  Familiarity breeds complacency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfONckOPyaI

 

[FJAG]

Georgia Teacher Arrested For Firing Gun in School

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/28/us/georgia-dalton-high-school-teacher-gunfire/index.html

Kinda a timely article for this argument.

[cheers]

 

[angus555]

And therefore more dead kids and grieving families?

Or maybe more dead kids/police because of random teachers panic shooting in a crowded school.

Who says that they are poorly trained? Many police and military personnel have little interest in firearms and shooting, and will only do the absolute minimum required to qualify (if they cannot find an excuse to avoid doing so completely). Private citizens who carry, openly or concealed, have much more interest in their firearms and many train to levels well above average police personnel.

I see a problem with this. Police and military should be more proficient than private citizens with firearms because that is their job. If we have a country full of private citizens waiting to go to war with each other, that's a sign of a serious problem with social cohesion and trust. More people with firearms exacerbates the "need" to have more firearms for self-defense. Can't teachers just focus on being teachers?

It's funny to see the argument that gun control is rooted in lack of trust for people. Owning a gun for personal self-defense is the epitome of lack of trust in others.

 

[Loachman]

Georgia Teacher Arrested For Firing Gun in School

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/28/us/georgia-dalton-high-school-teacher-gunfire/index.html

Kinda a timely article for this argument.

Bad, of course, but, when put into proper context - over 15,000,000 concealed-carry permit holders (which does not include unknown millions more in "constitutional-carry" states) did not negligently or criminally fire their weapons on the same day.

Meanwhile:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/gun_control/most_adults_with_school_aged_kids_support_arming_teachers

Most Adults With School-Aged Kids Support Arming Teachers

Wednesday, February 28, 2018

A proposal has been made to give bonuses to teachers who are specially trained to have guns in schools. Americans in general are torn about whether that’s a good idea, but a majority of adults with school-aged children like it.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 43% of American Adults favor a proposal to have trained teachers with guns in schools, while 48% oppose such a proposal.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/gun_control/americans_blame_government_more_than_guns_for_florida_massacre

Americans Blame Government More Than Guns for Florida Massacre

Tuesday, February 27, 2018

Most Americans think government error is more responsible than a lack of gun control for the Valentine’s Day massacre at a Florida high school.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 54% of American Adults believe the failure of government agencies to respond to numerous warning signs from the prospective killer is more to blame for the mass shooting. Thirty-three percent (33%) attribute the deaths more to a lack of adequate gun control. Eleven percent (11%) opt for something else. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

Among Americans who have children of elementary or secondary school age, 61% think the government is more to blame. Just 23% of these adults fault a lack of adequate gun control more.

 

[FJAG]

Just for some perspective re the number of police officers who have ever used their firearms outside of training.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-look-at-police-officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/

http://www.pointshooting.com/1abirds.htm

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

Regarding Emergency Services,

From the Chief of Atlantic Beach, Florida PD,

If you’re a first responder, please continue to train & be proficient in the active shooter response. This includes tactical & incident management of a scene. If you don’t know what ‘rescue task force,’  ‘ambulance exchange point,’ ‘contact team,’ ‘tactical/5th man,’ ‘casualty collection point’ or ‘staging’ means and how police/fire/ems all integrate at a scene then you are already behind the curve.


Rescue Task Force during Stoneman Douglas High School shooting
https://coralspringsconnection.wordpress.com/2018/02/26/coral-springs-parkland-fire-department-uses-rescue-task-force-during-stoneman-douglas-high-school-shooting/

The RTF concept is designed to establish a team of first arriving paramedics and early arriving patrol officers to move quickly into a “warm zone” in an attempt to triage, treat, and evacuate victims. The paramedics’ primary role is to triage, treat, and evacuate the injured, and the primary role of the police officers are to provide protection for those paramedics.

During the initial phases of this operation, we could not confirm that the suspect fled, had been detained, or was confirmed deceased. Although we will not speak to the actions of the Broward Sheriff’s Office commanders, we are confident that this risk of danger to our paramedics was used in their decision making process.

 

[Loachman]

Regarding Emergency Services,

From the Chief of Atlantic Beach, Florida PD,

If you’re a first responder, please continue to train & be proficient in the active shooter response. This includes tactical & incident management of a scene. If you don’t know what ‘rescue task force,’  ‘ambulance exchange point,’ ‘contact team,’ ‘tactical/5th man,’ ‘casualty collection point’ or ‘staging’ means and how police/fire/ems all integrate at a scene then you are already behind the curve.

That's wonderful, when it works.

It does not every time, however.

 

[mariomike]

That's wonderful, when it works.

It does not every time, however.

Do you have a better plan?

 

[Loachman]

Just for some perspective re the number of police officers who have ever used their firearms outside of training.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-look-at-police-officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/

http://www.pointshooting.com/1abirds.htm

Fascinating. Thanks.

From the first:

"For example, while solid majorities of those who have and have not fired their weapon favor protecting gun rights over controlling gun ownership, officers who have fired their weapon are somewhat more likely to favor protecting gun rights than those who have not used their firearm. In fact, across a number of gun-related questions, officers who have fired their weapon while on duty are less likely to favor some measures that would restrict gun ownership or provide more government oversight over gun sales."

 

[brihard]

Usually, it's all over by the time that police enter,

Uh, what? In the case of active shooters whose killing goals extend beyond one or two specific targets, no, that's not the case. Most often they suicide once they either detect the arrival and entry of police and the imminent confrontation with same, or once they are effectively engaged by police. Less frequently they are killed by police, or they surrender, or they evade for a time. But no, it's not usually 'all over' by the time police go in.

 

[Loachman]

Okay, "usually" may not have been the best choice. I did not find anything to back that word choice up during a quick search, but I was not wildly off either. Only one good source gave a decent breakdown:

http://www.policeforum.org/assets/docs/Critical_Issues_Series/the%20police%20response%20to%20active%20shooter%20incidents%202014.pdf

CRITICAL ISSUES IN POLICING SERIES

The Police Response to Active Shooter Incidents

March 2014

"... in about half the events, the shooting stopped before police arrived at the scene (commented on below). The shooter either committed suicide, or left the scene, or was shot or subdued by victims at the scene.

"These events generally happened very quickly. The most common resolution, in the events that stop before the police arrive, is that the shooter commits suicide. What we tend to see is that the attackers have an initial burst of violence. They have so many victims in front of them; they attack those victims; they run out of victims; and they kill themselves.

"That’s probably not very surprising for most of the police chiefs in this room. What may be a little bit surprising is the number of situations where the people on scene subdue or shoot the attacker themselves. That’s what happened in nearly 40 percent of all the incidents that were resolved before the police arrived. I think that’s important for the discussion about civilian response, which I’ll discuss later (see page 37). And in about 10 percent of the events that stop before the police arrive, the attacker just leaves."

Your "detect the arrival and entry of police and the imminent confrontation with same, or once they are effectively engaged by police" is much more clear than many suggestions that I came across, which leaves room for wide interpretation.

This is a general problem: lack of clear, precise, and universally-accepted definitions of such things as "mass murder/shootings", "gun-free zones", "at the scene", etcetera.

These can be spun by people on both sides of the argument; typically, the anti-gunners use low numbers (typically three) and include both killed and wounded, and pro-gunners use the traditional four deaths (not including the attacker).

How does one define the presence or influence of police? What constitutes "arrived at the scene"? Sound of approaching sirens? Pulling up at the entrance? In the building somewhere? Within range of the killer? Or, as in the Columbine case described in:

https://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

Auditing Shooting Rampage Statistics

July 31st, 2012

Submitted by Davi Barker

"4/20/1999 – Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were the killers behind the Columbine shooting in Littleton, Colorado. The two both commit suicide after police arrived, but what many people do not know is that the school’s armed security guard and the police all stood and waited outside the library while executions happed right inside. Fifteen people died, not including the shooters."

The time line selected for analysis may influence statistics as well, as the natures of attacks, concealed carry permissions, and police response SOPs and training evolve.

Both of those articles are worth reading. I'm still only part-way through them, and won't have much time to finish for several days.

I am learning more (that I wish was not necessary) from those, and some other articles, (including some credible claims that mental illness (by strict definition) is not as great a factor as most people (including me) believe(d) and that it may be more a case of internalized anger ("injustice collectors" - possibly related to terroristic radicalization as well) in young men, and I hope to be able to delve more into that aspect, especially as it appears to be largely overlooked.

Also an interesting read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/?utm_term=.7e694a038fa9

Do citizens (not police officers) with guns ever stop mass shootings?

By Eugene Volokh October 3, 2015

I've still yet to come across anything that has changed my thinking, beyond a few minor adjustments and updates.

 

[Loachman]

Do you have a better plan?

I have nothing against that plan.

I strongly object, however, to any refusal to consider training and equipping the absolute last line of defence: those teachers who wish to be allowed to defend their students and themselves. Forcing somebody to be a potential victim for ideological reasons is evil.

 

[mariomike]

I strongly object, however, to any refusal to consider training and equipping the absolute last line of defence: those teachers who wish to be allowed to defend their students and themselves. Forcing somebody to be a potential victim for ideological reasons is evil.

My post was regarding Emergency Services, not teachers,

Regarding Emergency Services,