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A "Why" Dress Thread split from OCdt Speaks at Freedom Rally

They may be (minor) breaches of dress policy but I would definitely not equate those to leadership failures. Like it was said in an earlier post by Navy_Pete, there is a context to a picture, which you are lacking. I would refrain from making judgement based on a single frame, unless you 100% adhere to the dress policies yourself, 100% of the time. Doubtful.
 
They may are be (minor) breaches of dress policy but I would definitely not equate those to leadership failures. Like it was said in an earlier post by Navy_Pete, there is a context to a picture, which you are lacking. I would refrain from making judgement based on a single frame, unless you 100% adhere to the dress policies yourself, 100% of the time. Doubtful.


Like I said...you're definition of a leadership failure doesn't seem to be in line with the CAF policy (which I what I've based mine on since...CLC in '93 or so, I guess).

A Cpl (an NCO) is in DEU and looks like a bag of shit, next to a CWO who is sharply turned out. Did the Cpl not do Basic? Because that is where NCMs are taught how to properly wear DEU. :rolleyes:

Drop the dress regs, we'll look like the Michigan Militia and those groups...or enforce them. It really is that simple...
 
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Like I said...you're definition of a leadership failure doesn't seem to be in line with the CAF policy (which I what I've based mine on since...CLC in '93 or so, I guess).

Context...what fuckin' context. A Cpl (an NCO) is in DEU and looks like a bag of shit, next to a CWO who is sharply turned out. Did the Cpl not do Basic? Because that is where NCMs are taught how to properly wear DEU. :rolleyes:

Drop the dress regs, we'll look like the Michigan Militia and those groups...or enforce them. It really is that simple...

Speaking of the Militia ;)

 
That was different variety of 'leadership failure'... a decision by someone who should have been issued the "Stu Pedidiot" nametag...😁
 
Like I said...you're definition of a leadership failure doesn't seem to be in line with the CAF policy (which I what I've based mine on since...CLC in '93 or so, I guess).

A Cpl (an NCO) is in DEU and looks like a bag of shit, next to a CWO who is sharply turned out. Did the Cpl not do Basic? Because that is where NCMs are taught how to properly wear DEU. :rolleyes:

Drop the dress regs, we'll look like the Michigan Militia and those groups...or enforce them. It really is that simple...
What is the CAF policy defining leadership failure?
 
NOT doing this stuff, for a start...that's the CAF basic expectation, of all Officers, regardless of rank, of trade/classification, position...the NCM one is similar, of course.

That's a good starting benchmark for the CAF to aim for at this point. I'll enforce whatever regs the CAF issues...just like the CAF expects me to.

Is this (dress) a serious/major leadership failure? Not compared to some of the other...issues...that are "in the news" as of late. But that doesn't mean it should get a 'pass' either.
 

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NOT doing this stuff, for a start...that's the CAF basic expectation, of all Officers, regardless of rank, of trade/classification, position...the NCM one is similar, of course.

That's a good starting benchmark for the CAF to aim for at this point. I'll enforce whatever regs the CAF issues...just like the CAF expects me to.

Is this (dress) a serious/major leadership failure? Not compared to some of the other...issues...that are "in the news" as of late. But that doesn't mean it should get a 'pass' either.
There is no way to 100% enforce 100% of the rules. Nor have I ever seen anyone adhere to 100% of the rules 100% of the time. Asking for this much is unrealistic and foolish. A pony tail that is in front is very, very minor for me and I wouldn’t blink an eye on someone that does this once. If it becomes a trend and there is a history of defying orders? Yes.
 
Yup, they are leadership failures. I know you don't think so, but the CAF policy is what you're in opposition to, not me. You're not stating the actual problem which you call "braids and ponytails". The real problem is Officers and NCMs not doing their jobs correctly; doing things the way the CAF expects them to be done (found in policy), and ensuring their sub's are doing that as well. THAT is a leadership failure.

"Swinging to the front" when the head is turned doesn't seem to be what's happening though, is it? Do you always 'explain' away things that aren't IAW policy?

...

Change the dress regs, or start enforcing the current ones. The CAF instructions are clear, people just need to follow and enforce them.

That includes you; you don't get to 'opt out' as an Officer. In fact...it's quite the opposite...

Just chiming here to say I agree with you Eye in the Sky for the most part, and don't have much to add. It may seem like a small thing to some, but dress regulations are there for a reason and ought to be adhered to. It is a very basic part of leadership IMO to ensure that subordinates are aware of and comply with dress regulations.

The first photo with the braids over the should while apparently looking down to attach a patch to velcro, could possibly be a brief moment in time that it accidentally fell over her shoulder so for now I'd let that pass ... but the second photo I think your analysis is correct. As I understand it neither you nor anyone else is calling for a court martial here.

I would argue that a formal photo that then gets posted on social media is in the same nature of severity as a "trend" or "history of defying orders" because this is defying orders in a very specific scenario where it is know the photo will be put out for the public to see.
 
What is the CAF policy defining leadership failure?

Not answering the exact question but...sorry it took me so long, I couldn't remember the exact Chap's and passages. Obviously, some cherry-picked ones from the total of 164 pages... Leadership in the Canadian Forces CONCEPTUAL FOUNDATIONS


To motivate and guide behaviour, values cannot be only
words on paper. To be credible, they must be a living part of
CF culture. This means that CF leaders must exemplify commitment
to institutional values, must embed them in policies
and practices, and must reinforce them through their
actions
. In short, leader integrity is critical in establishing
and maintaining a values-based culture and organizational
climate. Integrity, what some military scholars and ethicists
call the master value, ensures that what we strive to achieve
on behalf of the CF we do in ways that are worthy of military
professionals.

It has been said that in order to transform a civilian into
a disciplined soldier, the soldier must “upon entering the
service, come to live in his relation to command, and to
respect it much as he does the force of gravity, or the march
of time.”31 The training régime within the CF is one of the
positive means designed to instill the habit of obedience.
As well, the personal example of the leader, including his or
her integrity, skill, and knowledge, is another important
factor.

In very general terms, leaders in the CF – both formally
appointed leaders and emergent leaders – are responsible
for: accomplishing the mission, structuring and integrating
teams and units for optimum efficiency and co-ordination,
ensuring member well-being and commitment, establishing
and maintaining capabilities to adapt to change, and regulating
conduct in accordance with the value systems of the
Canadian military ethos. Many of these responsibilities are
reinforced in the statements of duties found in regulations
and in the role expectations symbolically communicated
through warrants and commissioning scrolls.
 
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OK, I never used to know anything about pony tails but - thanks to this thread - now I can't unsee this sh*t... thanks alot! ;)


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At LEAST 1 of those photos looks to be a professionally staged PA photo. Given the relative newness of being able to wear ponytails in uniform - at least for your non-RCN folks - and our ongoing efforts at attracting and recruiting more women, it would not surprise me in the least if the photographer specifically had the ponytail positioned in front, as a branding mechanism to make this new style option better known putside rhe CAF and dispel the very real notion that we are stuck in some 1950s idea of what a woman's hairstyle should be. Pics of the backs of womens heads showing the 'correct' way would not accomplish that objective...and I would argue it should definitely be an important objective right now.

I vividly recall in 2014, a RCN ship on the Op NANOOK deployment hosted the PM. A pic was taken of him on the forecastle, underway with the Naval Jack hoisted at the forecaslte position. A whole hockey sock of RCN CPOs had metldowns and complained loudly about how it was not strictly IAW the Manual of Ceremony, completely and utterly oblivious to the simple concept of 'Public Affairs'.
 
From a retired CWO/RSM:

The Corporal is not properly dressed. Who ever his section commander or what ever he has for an immediate superior failed. Leadership failure on the surface. There may be underlying issues like a TCat or PCat.

These matters are best handled somewhat discretely these days. A private conversation stating the Standard, The Faults and Remedies needs to happen.

In the Olden Days - a phrase my kids used to use - the CSM or Pl WO would testily dress you down in front of your peers. You can try this these days but be prepared to defend your actions.
 
Pics of the backs of womens heads showing the 'correct' way would not accomplish that objective...and I would argue it should definitely be an important objective right now
Now I'm just getting mental images of PAOs thinking "how do I get pics of backs of women's heads".

Anyway, I guess I'm going to look for the RCAF Ensign patch for my uniform :sneaky:
 
If I showed up for a H & A dressed like that...I'm betting someone is going to tell me I look like a bag of shit, bag of hammers, "insert descriptive statement here". And they'd be right.

Mindset...how I am at the Sqn and how I am sitting in my den, at home, miles away from "anything CAF"...they're not the same, but if you want to link them...feel free.

Point still stands and is accurate on the DEUs. That isn't the CAF standard; full stop

It is indeed a leadership failure on the part of that member's Unit Chief!

This is an MPC H&A. Clothing stores for the NCR is in Quebec, the border to which was closed for non essential travel for the last while. I personally do not consider getting my monkey suit appropriately tailored during a global pandemic where a whole lot of folks haven't, for a variety of valid reasons (as validated by the current abeyance of Force Testing), been keeping up their PT routine - to be essential business.

So yes, EITS, I fully agree - some senior NCM somewhere in that member's CoC neglected to look out for the morale and welfare of their subordinate by enquiring if their DEUs were GTG and thus failed to hold this ceremony in something like Operational Dress, which is the current order of dress for NDHQ, which in turn has likely embarrassed that member unnecessarily. Moreso since this has now been posted to the internet where the shame is forever. What a clown show this organization can be sometimes.
 
What a clown show this organization can be sometimes.

100%.

For all the good things happening (beards, boots, pay raises...) we're slipping back in other areas. The older I get, the more I want to just 'exist' in my own little part of the RCAF and put blinders on to anything not related to it.
 
EITS,

Have you ever been in a situation where your parade boots were dirty from walking in a gravel/dirt parking lot after rain? If so, you were in contravention of the Dress Manual.
 
No I have not ever had dirty parade boots. But if I did...what Chap/Sect/Para of 265 I am contravening?
 
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EITS,

Have you ever been in a situation where your parade boots were dirty from walking in a gravel/dirt parking lot after rain? If so, you were in contravention of the Dress Manual.
No I have no ever had dirty parade boots. But if I did...what Chap/Sect/Para of 265 I am contravening?
Before we all get in a urination contest - see I did learn stuff along the way - the Leadership Principle of "Use your common sense" should have been the 11th Principle.

This is a case where it should apply.
 
Before we all get in a urination contest - see I did learn stuff along the way - the Leadership Principle of "Use your common sense" should have been the 11th Principle.

This is a case where it should apply.
To use “common sense,” you need context. There was no provision made for context in the discussion scolding people on PA pictures.
 
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