A new Avro Arrow (or Super Arrow) instead of the F-35 (Merged thread)

[Retired AF Guy]

Well that would be amazing to see the Arrow as Canada's next fighter... such a shame how they scrapped it all those years ago

Yes, it was a shame that the Arrow was destroyed, but contrary to what many people think, the Arrow was not the "most advanced fighter" of its  time. The American's were testing the F-4 Phantom at the same time and it flew just as high and fast as the Arrow, plus it had an air-to-air refueling capability. 

The idea of resurrecting the Arrow is just so dumb.

 

[aesop081]

such a shame how they scrapped it all those years ago

Yes it is such a shame that we scrapped it rather than continue development work alone (i.e. the weapons system) and bankrupt the entire defence budget as a result. It's not like the CF needed anything other than a new fighter at the time.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Yes it is such a shame that we scrapped it rather than continue development work alone (i.e. the weapons system) and bankrupt the entire defence budget as a result. It's not like the CF needed anything other than a new fighter at the time.

:goodpost:

300 Milpoints inbound for for properly understanding and explaining the situation.

 

[jollyjacktar]

There is a lobby group who are pushing for the Avro Arrow to come back from the grave as Canada's next front line fighter.  Maj. Gen (Ret) Lewis MacKenzie is leading the charge, but getting no real bites in Ottawa.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/will-legendary-avro-arrow-make-lazarus-like-return/article4530724/

 

[OldSolduer]

As much as I like Lew Mac, he's a retired Army officer. He should have stayed in his arc of fire IMHO.

 

[Eaglelord17]

They do know that we completely destroyed all blueprints as well as the jets themselves right? So essentially what this former general is perposing is reverse engineering a fighter jet which barely existed for a brief amount of time and all the designers are dead or close to it with only pictures and a few models to go on? Seems a bit crazy.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

Well maybe they will finally open up  that barn in Saskatchewan now ...  ;D

 

[Edward Campbell]

There was no "room" in the global aerospace market for another country to compete in the sophisticated, high performance fighter niche back in the 1960s. I can see no change 50 years later ~ except, perhaps that Canada is not as well positioned for that particular market niche as it was back then.

The government of the day made a tough decision about where we "fit" and maybe the (relative) success of Bombardier/Canadair justifies that decision - maybe not. But, the fact is that we did, nationally, abandon that market niche and, in my opinion there is no going back.

Despite what some politicians think, the defence budget is not a regional employment programme.

 

[jollyjacktar]

As much as I like Lew Mac, he's a retired Army officer. He should have stayed in his arc of fire IMHO.

The Arrow is to many Canadians, including me, an opportunity lost.  I can understand how there are those who would love to see it in the sky, who wouldn't?  But, this is almost as crazy as Hellyer claiming he sees UFO's.  I'm with you, Jim.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

Would love to see an all-Canadian fighter in the skies, but lets be realistic.  This will never happen.  Even well established fighter production companies (i.e. Sweden's Saab with the Gripen) are struggling to make their projects profitable.  This would be a money pit that would probably eclipse purchasing the F-35 (and probably even the F-22 if it was available for export).

Sorry Lew, but you're off the mark on this one.

 

[Journeyman]

What most of the Avro Arrow's cheerleaders conveniently overlook is that the CF-105 was designed to go in a straight line very, very quickly in order to intercept then-newly developed Soviet jet-powered bombers. It was feared that such fast long-range bombers would trump the CF-100's capabilities.

It was never designed for, and its resurrected capabilities would be inadequate for, a multi-role attack/fighter aircraft.

Let it rest in peace in Canadian mythology.

 

[Jarnhamar]

What most of the Avro Arrow's cheerleaders conveniently overlook is that the CF-105 was designed to go in a straight line very, very quickly in order to intercept then-newly developed Soviet jet-powered bombers. It was feared that such fast long-range bombers would trump the CF-100's capabilities.

It was never designed for, and its resurrected capabilities would be inadequate for, a multi-role attack/fighter aircraft.

Let it rest in peace in Canadian mythology.

You're letting facts and common sense get in the way of patriotism and media flashy headlines.

 

[Journeyman]

  :-[  Sorry. Sometimes I forget myself.

             

 

[Haletown]

Must be silly season on Planet Ottawa.

Very surprised LM would allow his reputation to be associated this brain phart of an idea.

 

[Maxadia]

Maj. Gen (Ret) Lewis MacKenzie is leading the charge...

Why?

Can he really be that out of touch with things, that he thinks this country can sustain bringing a small-niche fighter back online from 50 years ago?

Like someone mentioned in the other thread, it would be very similar to the Foxbat, and completely useless for the role we are looking for a new fighter to fill.  Sure, it would be wonderful and nostalgic to have the Arrow fly again...but if you're going to do that maybe just bring Billy Bishop's plane back online while we're at it.  :

I think I just heard Lt.-Gen. Lawson's eyes roll back in his head.  Talk about having an early headache on the job.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Cancelling the project I could understand, the destruction of the aircraft and plans I don't. I suspect the aircraft would have made good test planes and a slowed development arc might have kept our aerospace industry chugging along without sucking up huge amounts of the budget.

 

[aesop081]

This has nothing to do with the CF-105. Lew Mack is just an unfortunate victim of a political play to discredit the Government.

 

[Old Sweat]

I've known Lew for more than 40 years (we met on Combat Team Commanders Course 7201) and today was the first time he did not make sense. He was interviewed on the morning show on CFRA  and said things like:

the AVRO engineers all took plans home with them and still have them;

the Arrow doesn't need stealth technology as it flies at 90,000 feet;

what we are talking about is the Arrow Mk III and IV. The ones scrapped in the 1950s were earlier models; and

there is no such thing as precision bombing [I guess he never heard of smart munitions].

I'll leave it at that other than to suggest he was fed some really bad talking poits.

 

[Ostrozac]

And what weapons would the modernized CF-105 carry? The original version was designed to deliver air-to-air nuclear weapons and detonate them over northern Canada.

Why we, as a nation, have chosen to romanticize a particularly nasty aspect of the Cold War is beyond me.

Combat aircraft are a means to deliver a package to a point. That package could be air-to-air missiles and gunfire, or bombs, or even a camera. But it is hard to discuss aircraft without discussing the "package".

At the end of the day, the Arrow wasn't a general purpose multirole fighter-bomber. It was a specialist tool. If we are only going to have a single fighter in the inventory, it has to be general purpose.

 

[Shrek1985]

Yes, it was a shame that the Arrow was destroyed, but contrary to what many people think, the Arrow was not the "most advanced fighter" of its  time. The American's were testing the F-4 Phantom at the same time and it flew just as high and fast as the Arrow, plus it had an air-to-air refueling capability. 

The idea of resurrecting the Arrow is just so dumb.

flat wrong. Look it up; Avro aircraft and cold war aviation by Whitcomb