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So what? Charge everyone with treason, tack on the supplementary 129 charge, and let's send someone to jail! Cocktails in The Mess to follow.
A Deeply Fractured US
- Thread starter BeyondTheNow
- Start date
My premise was and is correct on Trump's attempts to turn America's democracy into a fascist regime. I understand perfectly that fascism can be said to be an attack on democracy. Obama's eulogy for John Lewis stated 4 or 5 examplles of Trump's attack on America's democracy. While it's always debatable whether Obama's examples were accurate and correct, my premise still stands as correct.
And then Trump supplied us with an even better example today with his attempt to put off the coming election, which is said to be on account of the failing economy of the US. That could again be argued as not being the reason why Trump wants to delay the election, and he could make an argument for the reason being that Corona virus is a legitimate reason. That's fine too if Trump wants to buckle on his claim that it's a fake virus and there's no consequences to be paid if the people.
Neither would that sort of a claim from Trump make my premise of fascism on the rise being a false premise.
And then Trump supplied us with an even better example today with his attempt to put off the coming election, which is said to be on account of the failing economy of the US. That could again be argued as not being the reason why Trump wants to delay the election, and he could make an argument for the reason being that Corona virus is a legitimate reason. That's fine too if Trump wants to buckle on his claim that it's a fake virus and there's no consequences to be paid if the people.
Neither would that sort of a claim from Trump make my premise of fascism on the rise being a false premise.
Canuck_Jock said:
You've taken my suggestion of fascism on the rise with the Trump regime, and made it into a straw man argument by mentioning Nazis. I am maintaining that Trump's attack on America's democracy is equivalent to fascism. Please be aware Hitler's regime is but one example of fascism. Can you cite any more current examples?
Brad Sallows
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***This is OT for the thread, and could be moved***
Consider the first sentence at Fascism - Wikipedia (less the footnote numbers and pronunciation guide):
"Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe."
And from Authoritarianism:
"Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by strong central power and limited political freedoms. Political scientists have created many typologies describing variations of authoritarian forms of government. Authoritarian regimes may be either autocratic or oligarchic in nature and may be based upon the rule of a party or the military."
Power in the US government is still divided between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. We know this because judges routinely hand the executive defeats in court (which it complies with), and neither Trump, nor Pelosi, nor McConnell can tell the other two what to do and make it stick. When the executive is defeated in court, it accepts the defeat. Sometimes it polishes up its arguments or the parameters of what it wants to do and tries again. And again. Ultimately, though, it either wins fairly or stops trying. The judgements handed down in the past few weeks illustrate clearly that the Supreme Court in particular is not a puppet of the executive.
Political freedoms have not disappeared in the US. People still protest, they even riot, often with little consequence. The major media agencies, and everyone with a web presence, publish and say pretty much what they want to. Some cities openly disregard immigration enforcement. The Bill of Rights amendments still stand, and are stronger - sometimes far stronger - protections than most other countries will tolerate.
There is no one-party control. The Democrats won the House in 2018 fair and square and the transition of control from one party to the other happened just like it always does. Neither the administration nor the Republican party tried to seriously block the Mueller investigation. There is no reasonable case to make that Republicans would resist a change of control in the Senate. There is no reasonable case to make that, subject to customary challenges, Trump would not vacate the White House if he loses.
Rule by the military isn't in evidence at all.
Trump is not authoritarian. He blusters about things he'd like to do, or that he'd like to see happen - some of which he plainly has no power to do - but there's no follow through.
So now consider these parts of the description of fascism:
- dictatorial power
- forcible suppression of opposition
- as well as strong regimentation of society...
- ...and of the economy
Trump does not have dictatorial power. He dictates, but no-one obeys. Most just mock.
Opposition, whether to Trump, or to the House Democrats, or the Senate Republicans, is essentially unimpeded.
Society is not regimented. The inability to get Americans to meekly follow pandemic mitigation guidelines is proof.
The economy is not regimented. Companies do not take their instructions from any branch of government or political party. The US does not have corporatism in the sense required by fascism.
>I am maintaining that Trump's attack on America's democracy is equivalent to fascism.
If any damage is being done to parts of "America's democracy" (columnists seem to prefer the phrase "democratic institutions"), it's being done mostly by people opposed to Trump. Trump calls people names and speculates irresponsibly (such as the business about delaying the election), but that's not a meaningful attack, unless American democracy has all the structural integrity of a wet kitten.
Consider the first sentence at Fascism - Wikipedia (less the footnote numbers and pronunciation guide):
"Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe."
And from Authoritarianism:
"Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by strong central power and limited political freedoms. Political scientists have created many typologies describing variations of authoritarian forms of government. Authoritarian regimes may be either autocratic or oligarchic in nature and may be based upon the rule of a party or the military."
Power in the US government is still divided between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. We know this because judges routinely hand the executive defeats in court (which it complies with), and neither Trump, nor Pelosi, nor McConnell can tell the other two what to do and make it stick. When the executive is defeated in court, it accepts the defeat. Sometimes it polishes up its arguments or the parameters of what it wants to do and tries again. And again. Ultimately, though, it either wins fairly or stops trying. The judgements handed down in the past few weeks illustrate clearly that the Supreme Court in particular is not a puppet of the executive.
Political freedoms have not disappeared in the US. People still protest, they even riot, often with little consequence. The major media agencies, and everyone with a web presence, publish and say pretty much what they want to. Some cities openly disregard immigration enforcement. The Bill of Rights amendments still stand, and are stronger - sometimes far stronger - protections than most other countries will tolerate.
There is no one-party control. The Democrats won the House in 2018 fair and square and the transition of control from one party to the other happened just like it always does. Neither the administration nor the Republican party tried to seriously block the Mueller investigation. There is no reasonable case to make that Republicans would resist a change of control in the Senate. There is no reasonable case to make that, subject to customary challenges, Trump would not vacate the White House if he loses.
Rule by the military isn't in evidence at all.
Trump is not authoritarian. He blusters about things he'd like to do, or that he'd like to see happen - some of which he plainly has no power to do - but there's no follow through.
So now consider these parts of the description of fascism:
- dictatorial power
- forcible suppression of opposition
- as well as strong regimentation of society...
- ...and of the economy
Trump does not have dictatorial power. He dictates, but no-one obeys. Most just mock.
Opposition, whether to Trump, or to the House Democrats, or the Senate Republicans, is essentially unimpeded.
Society is not regimented. The inability to get Americans to meekly follow pandemic mitigation guidelines is proof.
The economy is not regimented. Companies do not take their instructions from any branch of government or political party. The US does not have corporatism in the sense required by fascism.
>I am maintaining that Trump's attack on America's democracy is equivalent to fascism.
If any damage is being done to parts of "America's democracy" (columnists seem to prefer the phrase "democratic institutions"), it's being done mostly by people opposed to Trump. Trump calls people names and speculates irresponsibly (such as the business about delaying the election), but that's not a meaningful attack, unless American democracy has all the structural integrity of a wet kitten.
Brad Sallows said:
Yes, it is but my comments in my last post have brought the discussion back on topic. You will see in that post that my original comment concerning fascism has in my opinion gained acceptance here, in that it's Trump's expressed agenda. So far?
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One example of anyone who's been oppressed, or more oppressed if you want to buy that bowl of soup, in the last 4 years?
Brad Sallows
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Good luck. You might, but it seems to almost entirely consist of policy differences. I quit searching after reading to the start of "June".
FJAG
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A solution at last.
https://article107news.com/u-s-military-bases-to-be-renamed-after-disney-princesses/
:cheers:
https://article107news.com/u-s-military-bases-to-be-renamed-after-disney-princesses/
:cheers:
FJAG said:
I know I've lost track as I've become older, but dang! Disney sure has a lot more princesses now than when I was young!
I mean after Princess Jasmine (hottest of them all, lets be real) Ariel, Pochahontas, Belle from Beauty & The Beast. That's it. That's all I know
FJAG
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CBH99 said:I know I've lost track as I've become older, but dang! Disney sure has a lot more princesses now than when I was young!
I mean after Princess Jasmine (hottest of them all, lets be real) Ariel, Pochahontas, Belle from Beauty & The Beast. That's it. That's all I know
Fort Tinker Bell.
I know. Not an actual princess.
;D
shawn5o said:
Just claiming it ain't so doesn't make it ain't so. Trump's ambitions aren't hidden in the least and so that calls for at least bringing them up for question specifically.
The only defense of Trump in that respect would be to accuse Trump of 'trolling' the leftists for the sake of it causing anger. Is that the reason why Trump says he wants to postpone the election or is he dead serious.
If he's just kiddin then there's a legitimate defense of Trump that could be used to take down my suggestion of fascist tendencies. But if he's serious then there's lots of examples of Trump's behaviour to talk about.
As I suggested earlier, Obama's eulogy for John Lewis contained 4 or 5 more examples that are offered to question Trump's efforts to take down America's democracy (fascism?)
Brad Sallows
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Just claiming it is so doesn't make it so.
There's nothing fascist about changing election dates. There's even less fascist about merely suggesting that a date could be changed. Plenty of elections are now partly conducted on dates other than the original "election day".
Until Trump can and does issue orders to the legislative and judicial branches, and occasionally to the American people and American private interests, and make them stick by relying on a supportive and compliant military, neither he nor the US is fascist.
There's nothing fascist about changing election dates. There's even less fascist about merely suggesting that a date could be changed. Plenty of elections are now partly conducted on dates other than the original "election day".
Until Trump can and does issue orders to the legislative and judicial branches, and occasionally to the American people and American private interests, and make them stick by relying on a supportive and compliant military, neither he nor the US is fascist.
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Donald H said:
Donald Trump – worst fascist dictator ever, eh
Since Trump’s election, leftists have insisted that he is a fascist authoritarian
I used to think that cries of “fascist, Nazi, etc.” somehow belonged to the past.
However, if we’re going to spar about the F-word – not that one, the another one: fascism – it is needful for us to get a firm understanding of what the term means.
((Oxford dictionary defines fascism as (disapproving, offensive) used to describe somebody that you think is bad because they have right-wing attitudes))
Why does the Uber Left call their foes “fascists, Nazis, etc.”? We see wisdom in George Orwell’s observation, expressed in his 1946 essay, “Politics and the English Language,” that “[t]he word fascism now has no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable.’” If today’s Left does not like someone – say George W. Bush or Donald Trump or Stephen Harper or Maggie Thatcher – or something – like conservatism – it cast aspersions upon that person or thing with the F-word, and hopes others will know that the tarred individual or entity isn’t “desirable.”
During the 2016 presidential campaign, Obama called Trump as fascist: According to NBC News, Obama told Kaine by phone, “Tim, remember, this is no time to be a purist. You’ve got to keep a fascist out of the White House,” Kaine says a clip included in the Hulu series, “Hillary,”
And this is funny - In 2019, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez asserted that Trump was “running concentration camps on our southern border,” making him “an authoritarian and fascist president.”. Somehow, she forgot about President Obama's role in that :not-again:
Do you remember when Nancy Pelosi in their last election cycle asked "Mr Trump, will you accept the election results?"
That's a laugh as you know that the dems never accepted the election of Trump to the WH.
Don't get me wrong - I don't care for Trump but I despise the dems more
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shawn5o said:
I'm not sure of the agreed definition but I've always understood fascism as an anti-communist, authoritarian-totalitarian, racist-nativist movement at least
