.50 cal Heavy Machine Gun

[KevinB]

We really f*cked up removing the .50 from general service.

I did my first MG course in 1988 (C-5 and .50) and when I went Patricia got to do it again (C-6  and QCB .50) in 95.

Sadly many who make these choices (dropping it from the TO&E of most units) have no understanding of our needs

 

[brin11]

I agree.  The .50 cal is an excellent and reliable weapon.

 

[axeman]

i still miss it but on the other hand we dont hump it the way we had to anymore . boy i remember one ex  C coy humped one too far then when it was finally tome for it to let loose  we found out we had humped a really heavy none automatic machine gun . even the OC was pissed . did all we could and still nothing . we have to keep up on the training on these thing or our skills will rust away like the weapons  will .

 

[pappy]

Nothing yet can replace a .50 cal.  John Browning was a genius.  Not too many weapons that where cutting edge when they came out in WW1 that still today can find no equal, russian and chinese copies are of course classify in this statement.

A big pig to hump for infantry, but implaced in a defensive position, it's well worth the sweat getting it there.

I met a certin Gunny Sgt in the Marines that tapped off a single shot and hit his target (documented kill) at over 1500 meters if I remember correctly with a .50 cal BMG.  I can dig up the exact didtance.  Hell of a shot. 

That said the .50 CAL BMG has chewed up a lot of bad guys and equipment over the years.  Short of the hand gernade not too many weapon systems designed for WW1 are still in standard use today with little changes.  hard to compare WW1 tanks to todays M1A2, the the WW1 .50 is pretty much the same beast as today.

That said lets bring back the Browning BAR  ;D

John Browning:
BAR
50. cal BMG
.30 cal M1918 and it cousins M1919 etc
1911 .45 pistol
Hi-power 9mm (granted this was finished by a Belgium after Johns Death)

hard to find another single man with that sort of resume.

 

[Danjanou]

Add me to the list of crusty old qualified gunners (1980-81). PPCLI Guy still have your old MG Bible "The Rise and fall of Emma Gees" ?

CFL thanks for reminding me why I regretted taking the course, humping the SOB. Come to think of it humping the old C5 GPMG wasn't actually fun and games either. 

I was always of the impression that the TQ2/QL3 MG course was one of the best for Infanteers to take, especially those who intended to move up the ranks. learning how to place/deploy them,effectively  taking into account beaten zones KZs etc gives one an excellent sense of ground and it's uses as well as the weapon itself. Nice skill sets to have as a Section or Platoon Comd.

Nothing better for reaching out and touching someone. It should be retained/brought back or it will be another skill set lost.

 

[axeman]

Jeez theres a book i aint thought of any one know whatever happend to LCol Netty? he was a big instagator in me likeing that thing even if i had to hump it . the book which he wrote a sequel  to was req. reading in my company .  the C5 is a mg that was there but im glad Fabrique National  came up with the MAG 58. a lot cleaner and no doubt a weapon that will last just like the .50 Browning mg

:fifty:

 

[Lance Wiebe]

When I first joined, we had the 50 from the RCAF Sabres mounted on the Lynx.  It differed from the Infantry version by having a much shorter barrel, and having the side mounted solenoid.  When we got rid of the Sabres, the Air Force gave the army hundreds of them, which is why we never did mount the 20mm that the Lynx mount was designed for.

Even in to the 80's, we would sometimes see guns with the shorter barrels.  

I liked the 50.  Of course, I never had to hump it, except from QM to the vehicle.

The other item of note was the fact that Armour drills for the 50 were set for one man, of course.  We had the 50 mounted in the Centurion as a ranging gun, operated by one man, and in the Lynx, operated as one man.  This proved interesting when I was sent on the Small Arms Instructor Course at the Infantry School, and part of the entrance exam was handling and IA's and Stoppages on the 50.  "Number two?  Who needs a stinkin' number two?"

Brings back memories.  Like firing incendiary ammunition dated 1952, made in England, from boxes in which the lids opened sideways, compared to ours.  Never had a stoppage with them.

 

[KevinB]

Danjanou,

That skill is pretty much lost in the mech units already...

When we deployed to Afghan we had to do a .50 refresher and I could count on my hands the # of qualified people in our Coy from SgtMaj on down...


The mech Mg course is now what we refer to as Advanced C6...

 

[Danjanou]

Kevin, guess I can't ever come back now eh.

Mortars gone, HMGs gone, well there go two out three of my QL3TQ2s, wanna bet they get rid of Infantry recce soon.

Axeman beleive it or not as I recall the C5 Browning was actually an improvement on the older original C1(?) Browning GPMG/MMG that were literally WW2 era 30 cal Brownings retooled to take the 7.62mm. The C5 had an easier to clean (coated ?) barrel and if you can believe it the head spacing etc. was simpler than on the older versions.

Man I'm showing my age here.

 

[axeman]

Danjanou , Yes I'd believe you that the old C-5 was an improvement over the old 19 whatever it was and neither is it a lewis gun but after being like KEVIN B qual on the C-5 and then  requal on the C-6 I'm just saying that the FN is a great leap forward . it fires great  less teeny tiney parts that can get lost in the mud if you have to go looking for a fault . its ergonomically designed for a simple single or multi person pack, and all the new fixes that  are being done to this weapon are so it can be used in roles not thought of when it was designed  and built . yes i remember that headspaceing and timing on a C5was pain and cannot think of what it woulda been like BEFORE the upgrade kinda like the old .50 when it had an oil buffer in the backplate as apposed to the fiber discs that it has/had  now . little improvements over time mean alot but in the end the C-5 was getting tired and not being adapted to as much as the newer weapons are . there have still now not been any serious attempts to bump MA DEUCE from the position it holds , sure there is the BUSHMASTER AND VULCAN autoncannons but wow who'dever what to hump one to the fire base ?

 

[Danjanou]

Axeman,

You're Preaching to the converted my friend. I went through the conversion course when the C6 came into the system and became a quick convert. We finally went and got an excellent piece of kit with it, and versatile too, (SF kit fr defence or sustained fire support in adeliberate attack , and/or bipod quick deploy role on patrols ATC etc.)

My only regret was by then I'd made WO and my Pl Wpns Det Comd wouldn't let the old fart play with his new toy too much 

The C5 Browining was ok for it's time as was the Lewis Gun I guess (I'm not that old) and the Vickers, and Bren too. It was time for it to go and I wasn't really sad to see it sent off to the museum. Now the Ma Duece is another story. There really hasn't been a decent replacement for it, the 20-25mm are a different beast and we still need something to fill that particular niche.

 

[KevinB]

Unfortunately the .50's only real niche (in the TO&E paper not reality) in the the LIB's DFS Pl.  Even with the Grenade MG comes online we will still be missing a large portion of our direct fire capability.

Want to chew up a car - .50BMG does it very well  (or a Greek Cypriot fishing vessel for that matter  )
The C6 is a little light in the loafers with the 7.62mm round to do what we need in some circumstances.

 

[mudgunner49]

Unfortunately the .50's only real niche (in the TO&E paper not reality) in the the LIB's DFS Pl.   Even with the Grenade MG comes online we will still be missing a large portion of our direct fire capability.

Want to chew up a car - .50BMG does it very well   (or a Greek Cypriot fishing vessel for that matter   )
The C6 is a little light in the loafers with the 7.62mm round to do what we need in some circumstances.

"...light in the loafers..."

You're not calling the C6 ghey now, are you Kevin???

Be safe,
Blake

 

[pbi]

Thank God we never actually scrapped the .50-just sidelined it. It is still a happening gun, many years on! Speaking of humping it, I remember when I was on an AMF(L) deployment in Norway (anybody remember those...?) I saw the pack frame that the Norgies had to carry the .50. The gun was carried vertically on a large pack frame, spade grips down, muzzle upwards. Another soldier carried the tripod, and another the ammo. I never saw us adapt anything like that, but it would be useful. Cheers.

 

[Danjanou]

...Speaking of humping it, I remember when I was on an AMF(L) deployment in Norway (anybody remember those...?) I saw the pack frame that the Norgies had to carry the .50. The gun was carried vertically on a large pack frame, spade grips down, muzzle upwards. Another soldier carried the tripod, and another the ammo. I never saw us adapt anything like that, but it would be useful. Cheers.

Sounds  lot more effective than bungy cording it to the tobbagan. :

Nice to know they're still gathering dust in some wharehouse for now, rather than being melted down somewhere to show up again as twin blades at the local dollar store. Of course the question remains that if in 10 or 15 years we decide that we need to start using them again, who's going to remember how to, and not just weapons drills but proper deployment etc. Look at how few serving members on this site actually have experience with the weapon now. What are they going to do call us old dinosaurs out of retirement to run ad hoc HMG courses?

Another skill set that will eventually disappear from the military.

 

[axeman]

I rember seeint that it was during the fall ex .. Array Encounter wasnt it were we humped all over the north part of norway ....

 

[Spr.Earl]

Afraid not why?

I had mine back in 95 and I realy enjoyed it,especialy the Anti Air roll,that was fun.
If you get the chance take it.

 

[Spr.Earl]

"Axeman beleive it or not as I recall the C5 Browning was actually an improvement on the older original C1(?) Browning GPMG/MMG that were literally WW2 era 30 cal Brownings retooled to take the 7.62mm. The C5 had an easier to clean (coated ?) barrel and if you can believe it the head spacing etc. was simpler than on the older versions."

Danjanou remember the old trick for head spacing the G pig?
A dime?

 

[bossi]

Speaking of humping it, ... Another soldier carried the tripod, and another the ammo. I never saw us adapt anything like that, but it would be useful. Cheers.

It was only the old GPMG (not a 50) but I remember carrying both the gun and tripod for an entire airmobile exercise because somebody didn't show up ... and my ammo carrier could barely carry his load, let alone anything extra (... so, yes - once again, size does matter ... but, I digress ...)

When it came time to fire on the moving tgt range, somebody tried to muscle me off the gun ... but MWO Damjanoff wouldn't have any of that, saying if I'd carried all exercise I was damn well going to fire it ...
And so, armed with a big honkin' screwdriver, he made sure it kept firing ...
Yup - there's nothing better than somebody who knows what he's doing, when it comes to the Emma Gees (thanks also for that reminder - perhaps one of the best short stories ever written, and the inspiration for my own attempt at writing in that gendre).

 

[Spr.Earl]

Axeman it just came to me you were in the C.Q. when I did my Machine Gunners course. 
Not clean enough!
W.O. Woodward was Platoon W.O.,M.W.O. Soosie (sp) was Platoon Sgt.Maj.