4 CER Germany Guys, I need some help with a Jeep restoration.....

[armybuck041]

Fellas,

I'm restoring a Canadian M151A2 1/4 Ton, aka, "74 Pattern Jeep", "Roll-over Jeep", "Throwaway Jeep", "Disposable Jeep", "MUTT"... ie, the other Jeep before the Iltis, not the Willys M38A1 Jeep. These would have been in use from 1974 until 1987ish when the Iltis came into the system. Heres a snap of one:

Anyway, i'm trying to restore it as a 4 CER Jeep and am trying to figure out who in 4 CER would have used an M151A2. Also, for Comms, it will have an RT-524 and a PRC-77 in a 2060 Tray, so i'd like to try and nail down the right Call Sign for it that would have had that Radio configuration.

If anyone happened to have any photos sitting around that had one of these Jeeps in it, i'd literally kill for a scan of it, as they are very scarce in photos, especially with the Engineers.

I guess, in order to get some info, we could allow some Germany Stories in the thread

Thanks

 

[Kat Stevens]

There wouldn't have been too many, 4 CER being mech and all.  There was one for the Sup Sqn OC, one for the Ress  Park Tp Comd, one for the DCO, OpsO, and a couple more.  4 CER in the Jeep days would have been a Fd Sqn of 2 Fd Tps + HQ, a Sup Sqn with Pk Tp, Maint Tp, Adm Tp, and an RHQ.


Edited to add an ORBAT from 1980(ish).  Note only 7 jeeps in the whole Regiment.

4 Combat Engineer Regiment (4 CER)

OFFR 10
OR 177
(TOTAL PERS 187)
BIBER AVLB 3
LYNX 3
M-113 APC 19
M-548 CCT 5
M-577 CCP 1
MOTOR CYCLE 3
JEEP 7
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 13
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 15
TRUCK 5 TON 10
SEMI TRAILER2O T LOW BED 1
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 4
HMG .50 CAL 3
GPMG 7.62 mm 31
AN/PS-15 (V) 2 3
CRANE 25 TON 1
GRADER MOTORIZED 1
LOADER SCOOP WHEELED 2
BULLDOZER 2

 

[Spanky]

Are you looking specifically for jeeps from engineer units, or would any from 4 CMBG work.  It's been quite a while, but I should be able to dust off some albums and pull a couple from the RCD.

 

[armybuck041]

Are you looking specifically for jeeps from engineer units, or would any from 4 CMBG work.  It's been quite a while, but I should be able to dust off some albums and pull a couple from the RCD.

Doesn't have to be Engr specific. Any M151A2 from the era would be great as it will help nail down some details like paint, markings and kit configuration. It's very hard to find photos of these things. As it stands, after 2 years I've only managed to find around a dozen, many very distant in the pics. 

Thanks for your troubles.

 

[armybuck041]

Kat, perfect. Exactly what I was looking for.

Just need to confirm Call Signs. Was 4 CER the same as the rest of the Engr Units (41, 45, 48 etc) for Sqn numbering? I'd imagine Park Tp would be a good candidate.....

Scotty

 

[Kat Stevens]

I believe at the time there was only 41 Fd and 45 Sup Sqns.  If my memory from then still serves, 51 was Pk Tp, 52 was Maint Tp, 53 was Adm.  The CO (9, of course) may have had a jeep at the time, but my time in 4 CER was post jeep.  51A would be Pk Tp comd's call sign, 59 would be OC 15's, etc.  The tac sign would have been mech eng, the unit bullets on it would not have changed.  Call sign in front of doors, MLC front right (I think) fender, tac sign on rear right bumper and front left fender.


edit: just took another look at your picture, disregard my marking placement.

 

[armybuck041]

I believe at the time there was only 41 Fd and 45 Sup Sqns.  If my memory from then still serves, 51 was Pk Tp, 52 was Maint Tp, 53 was Adm.  The CO (9, of course) may have had a jeep at the time, but my time in 4 CER was post jeep.  51A would be Pk Tp comd's call sign, 59 would be OC 15's, etc.  The tac sign would have been mech eng, the unit bullets on it would not have changed.  Call sign in front of doors, MLC front right (I think) fender, tac sign on rear right bumper and front left fender.


edit: just took another look at your picture, disregard my marking placement.

Again, excellent info. Although the C/S all pretty much translate with todays Regts (except 4 ESR for some strange reason), i'm glad to be clear on it. Looks like i'll go with Park Tp Comd for this.

I've attached a pic that shows Cam Patterns and markings from 4 CMBG. If you don't mind, having a look at it, there is a 4 CER Lynx. That was the marking scheme I was going with (except the call sign). Of note, was that the Tac Sign was in white. Just want to confirm this.

Also, did 4 CER have any logos on their vehicles, like a Sqn Crest etc?

 

[George Wallace]

Tac Signs were still being done in Black until, at least, 1983.  I noticed that they had changed to White in 1985, basically matching all the other nations.

That Tac Sign looks odd.

 

[armybuck041]

Heres a few snaps of its current status. Still a long way to go, but these things are dead simple to work on.

 

[McG]

Doesn't have to be Engr specific. Any M151A2 from the era would be great as it will help nail down some details like paint, markings and kit configuration. It's very hard to find photos of these things. As it stands, after 2 years I've only managed to find around a dozen, many very distant in the pics. 

Have you been over to the CME Museum?  There might be some pictures burried away in there.

 

[armybuck041]

Have you been over to the CME Museum?  There might be some pictures burried away in there.

I've been through the Base Museum and all over their M151A2, but it never even crossed my mind to check out the CME Museum. I'll have to make the trek over one of these days.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Tac Signs were still being done in Black until, at least, 1983.  I noticed that they had changed to White in 1985, basically matching all the other nations.

That Tac Sign looks odd.

That tac sign is from an RHQ vehicle.  This may be a bit closer, knocked out in mspaint, so not great, but a starting place.

 

[George Wallace]

That tac sign is from an RHQ vehicle.  This may be a bit closer, knocked out in mspaint, so not great, but a starting place.

Although the way the size indicator was done was odd, I was wondering if the "Bridge" would have been inside of the "Track" instead of above? 

 

[McG]

Although the way the size indicator was done was odd, I was wondering if the "Bridge" would have been inside of the "Track" instead of above? 

No.  That is a mobility indicator much like the three wheels now on most of our tac signs.  In Canadian usage:

• Inside big oval = Armd Engrs
• Above "squished" oval = M113 Cbt/Fd Engrs

 

[George Wallace]

I was more accustomed to seeing the AVLB and clag than others.  May have to look at old photos (from early 80's 4CMBG), although Tac Signs will likely be hard to find.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Because Armoured Engineers in the early 4 CER days were only a section of Sup Sqn (3 X AVLB), they sported the regimental (Mech Eng) tac sign rather than the inside the oval tac sign.  I believe if they were a troop or squadron, they'd have a full on Armoured Engineer sign.

EDIT:  Scratch that.  As a sub call sign of a mech regiment, they would bear a mech rather than armoured tac sign.

 

[armybuck041]

Did the Tac Signs go below the Sqn level? Reason I ask, is while at 2 CER, and when they actually still marked vehicles, I never saw any Tac Signs that went below the Sqn level. I slammed one together based on my memory bank of what 23 Fd Sqn had on all its vehicles. I actually had to paint these on the 2 Tp Vehicles at one point along with the "Black Cat on the Storm Boat" 23 Fd Sqn crest. I'm thinking that the logic was that the Tac Sign denoted the Sub-Unit, and the C/S itself on the side of the vehicle indicated the Sub-Sub Unit. Does this make sence?
Lastly, does anyone recall if 4 CER had any Crests or Unit Slogans/Markings on their vehicles?

 

[George Wallace]

I don't remember seeing anything in the Bde marked below the Sqn/Coy level.

 

[Kat Stevens]

You're right, Sqn was the lowest formation to get a vehicle tac sign, the one I posted was more likely to be seen on a map in the CP.  There was no official unit "nose art" in the Regiment, but individual troops did, like the AVLB guys Iron Horsemen, 2 Tp Tramps, etc.

 

[armybuck041]

Gents, bit of a necro-post but i'm on the hunt for some 4 CER slip-ons.

Since finishing the Jeep i've been gathering up all of the period correct items like 64 Pattern Webbing, C2 Rucksack, Steel Helmet etc to display in it (I'm not into dress-up ). Just putting on the finishing touches and was hoping to find a pair of 4 CER slip-ons for a 4 Seasons Jacket.

Anyone?

Heres some snaps in its current setup: