"3 Block War" Training Center?

[Chags]

"down on one knee" vs "prone"

"Momentum" vs "cover from fire" 

interesting dilemma..  we'll see what works best when you come to CMTC, won't we...?

 

[GO!!!]

Chags,
    Just a few Qs on the new establishment in Wx...
   
Is CMTC even operational yet?

Is it applicable for Light forces (can we be tracked and plotted with any accuracy?) Or is it more geared towards mechanised ops?

What is your response to the statement "With CMTC, we are within 5 years of being able to train to fight the Cold War"

And finally, with our dearth of strategic tpt, is there any reason to train manoever forces to fight an EN that no longer exists, in equipment that we can't move anywhere, with an elected government that has no will to use us to our full potential? (I dont really expect a satisfactory answer to that one)

But seriously, can CMTC be used to hone skills that we need? (anti - ambush, urban ops/patrolling) Given that there is very little work out there for a mech BG, can it be re worked for Airborne/Air Mobile/SF type missions?

Thanks in advance for a response to questions that I'm sure you've answered before..

 

[Infanteer]

But seriously, can CMTC be used to hone skills that we need? (anti - ambush, urban ops/patrolling) Given that there is very little work out there for a mech BG, can it be re worked for Airborne/Air Mobile/SF type missions?

Good point - I'm sure the CMTC will have it's uses (just as the NTC in Ft Irwin does), but are we putting all of our eggs in one basket?  Should we be sending resources for training in an area other then a bald-ass prairie?

 

[KevinB]

but are we putting all of our eggs in one basket?   Should we be sending resources for training in an area other then a bald-ass prairie?

Of course we are its the Canadian way...

  I fully agree on the "cold war" mentality/relevance of CMTC as it appears to be set up (from firends posted there)

 

[Infanteer]

I think the way I understand the CMTC to be set-up can be very advantageous in many respects (of which were discussed throughout this thread) in terms of testing leadership, doctrine, using free-play, validating the command ability of officers, etc, etc - much like Ft. Irwin.

However, it seems to be honed in on "conventional" - we probably need a Canadian Unconventional Warfare Center that deals with cities, complex terrain, 4th Generation Warfare, 3-block war, etc, etc.

 

[KevinB]

Surprisingly the CF is wayyy ahead of you.

CPC is turning into the Canadian Special Warfare Center (or words to that effect) the manning plan and all the other stuf is on the DIN.

Located in Trenton so no bald ass prarie...

 

[Infanteer]

Not that far ahead of me, I knew that already.    ;D

When I state "UWTC" I mean, as opposed to acting as a repository for "high-speed" individual courses, a training center that is capable of consistently rotating at least a unit (or even, like the CMTC, a Brigade Group) through a realistic "4th Generation Warfare" training area.  Are they planning for this as well?

Anyways, this is off the section attack topic, so it's getting moved.

 

[KevinB]

That appears to be the scope

There will be cadre that will also be able to function as a self contained SOC unit

 

[Chags]

Sorry, it took so long to reply to all these questions..  I actually had work to do today..  PER season and all..

First off, let me tell you that the name CMTC is no longer accurate..  We've changed direction drastically since January.. We know the threat has changed..  I actually like the name of this thread and call it the 3BWTC..  too late I guess..  We are very much in tune with providing the framework for 3 block war scenarios..  We will have the flexibility with our OPFOR to throw a Combat team at you, or have para-military units, terrorists, suicide bombers and COB, etc.  We are also in the process of building a number of villages, farm compounds and even a cave system that will allow this type of training. We also have a fully instrumented town that is in its early planning stages.  We are trying to mimic situations that our TFs might encounter in Kabul, Darfur, etc.. 

We will adapt with the changing threat.  As the CDS said, we are now training to fight the "snakes" but still have the capability to fight the "bear" if required.  The training will be as realistic as possible..  Units going into high-readiness will know where they are about to be deployed, and CMTC will be part of their TMST..

CMTC will be operational in Apr 06.  This is when he expect the first ROTO to come thru.  This summer (July-Aug) is the second level of system acceptance tests..  A coy gr from 1 VP (with Ldsh) will prove the first vehicles. 

Both mech and light forces will be tracked by excon.  This info can be used as "footage" for AARs.  Every soldier will have a GPS receiver on his vest/helmet.  And when a soldier enters a vehicle, he will be "associated" to it (as the GPS would not be able to track his movement in the vehicle, but the vehicle itself will be tracked)

I hope I've answered most of the questions..  feel free to ask more.

 

[Infanteer]

Hey, interesting stuff - but how do you plan on getting a "cave complex" in the middle of Wainwright?  Battle River environs or something?

 

[KevinB]

Chags - good to hear! Updates from the horse mouth are always nice to hear!

 

[Infanteer]

Whoa now - what did you do.  Optimism from KevinB AND an exclamation point to boot!?!  All that needs to happen is for CFL to come over and say "cool".... ;D

 

[McG]

However, it seems to be honed in on "conventional" - we probably need a Canadian Unconventional Warfare Center that deals with cities, complex terrain, 4th Generation Warfare, 3-block war, etc, etc.

No.  It needs to be one collective TC that handles conventional and unconventional threats in open, complex and "boundary" terrain.

This means that CMTC not only needs a OBUA village, it probably needs a couple (of various sizes) that are located throughout the trg area on and adjacent to MSRs.  Some of these may be the traditional cinderblock two storey buildings of most such villages.  Building some with internal walls of wood & drywall although the integration of realistic booby-trap trg.  Some of the villages may only need to be collections of sea-containers with doors cut into the sides or ends.

 

[COBRA-6]

Chags, do you have any new info WRT reservists filling the OPFOR posns there?

 

[Infanteer]

Ok, that sounds like it would work.  I still think (and I don't know if it is asking for too much) that a "3BWTC" should have a large enough urban environment to put a battalion/battlegroup into - simply putting up 15 houses doesn't seem to be extensive enough to practice and validate things like "satellite patrolling", navigating for QRF's, roadblocks, and all the other stuff that comes to mind.

 

[GO!!!]

The fact that the CF has re-oriented enough to even CONSIDER a training center for the so called "3 block war" is absolutely f***ing outstanding.

It may only be in the early stages right now, but it sure beats a LAV/Tank/Stryker/Mech BS centric training area that would train us really well to fight our father's war.

We must not critisize such an endeavor, lest it revert into something really useless (like the FIBUA house in Edmonton)

Chags - will this trg area, or any part of it, be operational for the Bde Ex in May?

 

[McG]

simply putting up 15 houses doesn't seem to be extensive enough to practice and validate things

We're looking at a "100 sea-can village" to support some up comming training.

 

[ArmyRick]

Although we only conduct individual entry level training here at Meaford, we have been told to start gearing our ex scenarios to 3 block war material. They have also converted the old arty shack into a "simunition/WES" kill house.
The kill house is equiped with cameras and a cat walk for DS/OCs to watch the fun. They have also loaded our OBUA Village with cameras for feedback.

I like hearing how we are going the right direction in training. I am behind Hillier. I also think too many people do not understand that 3 block war does equal peacekeeping only. Look at Falluja, that was a brutal battle.

Lord knows when I was in 2VP and did a breif stint with the RCRs, it was interesting doing combat team, but as GO!!! said, that was relevant for my Dad when he was serving in 2 RCHA in germany in the '60s...

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I've thought that a great model for the CFs CMTC is more along the lines of the US Joint Readiness Training Center in Ft. Polk, LA.  It's good to see that the '3 block war' concept is being taken into consideration with the development of CMTC.

Perhaps a name change is indeed needed to better reflect the true scope of the centre:  Canadian Operational Training Centre or COTC rather than CMTC?

 

[Infanteer]

This has got to be one of the most enthusiastic threads I've seen in a long time.

Chags, you are the official Army.ca Morale Officer....

Perhaps a name change is indeed needed to better reflect the true scope of the centre:   Canadian Operational Training Centre or COTC rather than CMTC?

I think "maneuver" is required so as to correlate it with that snazzy (shoplifted) doctrine facelift we got a few years back.