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22 Jul 11: Explosion near Norwegian PM's office

OldSolduer

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Technoviking said:
How did this go "Godwin" on us?  It matters not what political stripe/spectrum that nazis, commies or even libertarians are.  All that matters is this: some ultra-nationalistic and xenophobic monster plotted and slaughtered dozens of innocents.

Go argue the philosophy of templating various political stripes elsewhere, please.

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And I fully agree with TV. Debating Communists vs Nazis is not helping. We should be agreeing that this is one of the most reprehensible, cowardly acts of the 21st century, and MUST be denounced.
 

tomahawk6

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store_utoya-570x320.jpg


The main activity at the Utoya Island Meeting were mock "Break the Israel blockade" games. One event was Palestinian aide boats would try to break the Israel blockage. Whoever gets through first wins. The sign says "defeat the blockade" (opphev blokkaden - Gaza)

4859983826_1145203a6e_z.jpg

 

bossi

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Yes, I despise armchair quarterbacks, but ... this whole massacre bugs me so much, I've got to add my three cents' worth.  I've just read a newspaper report critical of police response time (Norwegian police only had on helicopter, and the pilot was on vacation).  Approx 20 years ago I floated a proposal to create a pool of helicopters we could draw upon if needed ... so maybe it's time to think this over again ... just sayin' ... 

"... At first this caused some alarm amongst the terrorists. They studied these helicopters through their binoculars, reading the letters "CAFA" on the fuselages. Looking like giant bumblebees this ragtag collection of blue, yellow, orange, red and other-coloured helicopters could not possibly pose any threat. They came and went randomly, hovering for only a few seconds here and there, landing occasionally for an instant and then seemingly scurrying away.

The terrorists concluded that this flying circus must be chartered aircraft from some television station "CAFA" ferrying cameramen and reporters around the airport perimeter. After all, they reasoned, no police or military force in their right mind would fly these brightly painted aircraft in broad daylight on a counter-terrorist mission, would they? Placated, they paid less attention to these civilian helicopters and scanned the skies instead for dark, menacing, combat aircraft. ...

The terrorist lookouts didn't realize that the sniper rounds which silenced the leader were also the signal to open fire for the infantry platoons. Worming their way through tall grass, crawling forward an inch at a time, the soldiers had travelled a fair distance from where the Canadian Air Force Auxiliary (CAFA) helicopters had touched down only long enough for each fireteam to throw themselves to the ground. ..."

http://www.ducimus.com/Archive/cafa.html
 

Fishbone Jones

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I'll not make the warning again.

We will stick to the current Norwegien current event.

The Nazis & Stalin do not belong in this thread.

Milnet.ca Staff

Welcome back Bossi. Hang around a bit longer this time ;)
 

canada94

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This article gave me the chills.. I couldn't even imagine being in this situation..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/07/27/norway-text-message-exchange.html
 

Retired AF Guy

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Has anyone seen any info on what type of firearm(s) were used in the shootings? There is picture of the killer with what looks like a Ruger Mini-14, but its so decked out (two flashlights!!) its kind of hard to tell. Its appears he used a rifle and with all the shooting he did it must of had a large magazine capacity (aforementioned Ruger?). Some reports also mentioned a shotgun may have been used. 
 

canada94

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Retired AF Guy said:
Has anyone seen any info on what type of firearm(s) were used in the shootings? There is picture of the killer with what looks like a Ruger Mini-14, but its so decked out (two flashlights!!) its kind of hard to tell. Its appears he used a rifle and with all the shooting he did it must of had a large magazine capacity (aforementioned Ruger?). Some reports also mentioned a shotgun may have been used.


"The official said the gunman used both automatic weapons and handguns"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/utoya-norway-shooting-terror_n_907069.html

I read somewhere else that he had a bag he hid his weapons within. What specific weapon's he used, I don't know, this is specific as I have read.
 

Retired AF Guy

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I did a little research into Norwegian gun laws and found this report that states Breivik had legally registered a Ruger semi-automatic rifle (Ruger Mini-14) for deer hunting.
 

bossi

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Carrying on with my ranting about being able to "commandeer" civilian helicopters in an emergency ...

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1031300--cameraman-didn-t-realize-he-had-captured-norway-killer-on-tape?bn=1

OSLO, Norway — A TV cameraman who captured the only known images of the gunman during his shooting rampage at a political youth camp in Norway says he had no idea at the time that the killer was in his viewfinder.

Marius Arnesen, a cameraman for Norwegian public broadcaster NRK, was in a helicopter hovering more than 200 meters over Utoya island, where panicked youth were being massacred as they fled into the water on Friday.

At the time, Arnesen says, he didn't realize the scale of the disaster, in which at least 68 people were mortally wounded.

"We were circling the island taking shots of the island," he told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "It looked empty, so at first I thought police had evacuated the island. Then we saw people swimming and floating in the water. And then we started slowly realizing what was going on."

He zoomed in on a part of the island where people had jumped into the water.

"It's really hard to hold a camera still and get the framing right. So I just zoomed in and tried to hold it still for 3 seconds," Arnesen said.

His images show a man in dark clothing surrounded by bodies piled up on the shore and in the water. NRK released them to other media after blurring out the victims so they could not be identified.

As the helicopter left to refuel, Arnesen still wasn't quite sure what was on his tape, he said.

It wasn't until the next morning, when NRK editors were going through his images frame by frame, that they realized they had video of Anders Behring Breivik, the 32-year-old Norwegian who has confessed to the shooting and a bombing hours earlier in Oslo's government district.

"I got a call saying, 'just to let you know you've captured the killer,'" Arnesen said.

The fact that the NRK helicopter arrived before the police SWAT team that arrested Breivik has sparked criticism over the police response. Relatives of people on the island have also questioned whether the NRK helicopter put people in graver danger.

Marianne Bremnes, whose 16-year-old daughter Julie was cowering on the island during the shooting, says her daughter came out of her hiding place "and waved her pink rain jacket" because she thought the helicopter was there to rescue her.

"If she had been at the wrong spot she would have been killed, since the police had not arrived yet and the gunman was not arrested," Bremnes said by telephone from Harstad in northern Norway on Wednesday. She said her daughter survived the massacre but lost five of her friends.

"In my opinion, the press should have stayed away until the police arrived so that they could know what was going on," Bremnes said. "There should be some ethical guidelines for how they operate, although I understand the press has an important role to play."

Arnesen said thoughts were running through his mind about ways to help.

"I think you always think those thoughts and then somewhere in your mind you realize it's impossible," he said. "There was nowhere we could land with the helicopter — we knew there was a gunman walking around there. You just try to focus on your job."
- 30 -
 

mariomike

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the 48th regulator said:
We have all been conditioned to save ourselves from a fire, however in North America alone, we have lost more students to Gunfire, than an actual fire.
He actually professes that we should all be trained what to do in these types of situations, so that we can minimize the threat, and casualties.

School fire safety lessons were learned the hard way. Walter Cronkite responded to a school explosion-fire early in his career as a reporter. He was quoted as saying decades later, "I did nothing in my studies nor in my life to prepare me for a story of the magnitude of that New London ( Texas ) tragedy, nor has any story since that awful day equaled it."

School shooting drills:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=87o&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=school+shooting+drills&oq=school+shooting+drills&aq=f&aqi=g1g-b3&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=133370l134230l0l135311l5l5l1l0l0l0l209l591l1.2.1l4l0
 

the 48th regulator

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mariomike said:
School fire safety lessons were learned the hard way. Walter Cronkite responded to a school explosion-fire early in his career as a reporter. He was quoted as saying decades later, "I did nothing in my studies nor in my life to prepare me for a story of the magnitude of that New London ( Texas ) tragedy, nor has any story since that awful day equaled it."

In the same way were are learning a hard lesson about shootings in school.  What greater target of tearror than the place where our children are all collected.  A supposed safe place.

mariomike said:
School shooting drills:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=87o&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=school+shooting+drills&oq=school+shooting+drills&aq=f&aqi=g1g-b3&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=133370l134230l0l135311l5l5l1l0l0l0l209l591l1.2.1l4l0

Meh,

I would rather rely on Dave Grossman's view, as opposed to googlefu;

http://www.killology.com/vitae.htm

Preparing for School Attacks


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canada94

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We do have "lock-down" practices at my school.. essentially, we lock the doors, and hide underneath our desk until police arrive..
 

mariomike

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the 48th regulator said:
I would rather rely on Dave Grossman's view, as opposed to googlefu;

When possible, I prefer not to rely on just one man's point of view. There's lots of experts.
 

ballz

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canada94 said:
We do have "lock-down" practices at my school.. essentially, we lock the doors, and hide underneath our desk until police arrive..

I remember doing a few of those in school. What a stupid idea... talk about encouraging people to be sheep.

Apparently the schools haven't heard about a lock only keeping out an honest man and all that jazz... Our classroom doors had huge friggin' windows for god's sake.
 

Infanteer

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mariomike said:
When possible, I prefer not to rely on just one man's point of view. There's lots of experts.

Especially when a lot of what Dave Grossman says isn't exactly right.
 

ballz

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Infanteer said:
Especially when a lot of what Dave Grossman says isn't exactly right.

Some of the stuff about martial arts is pure bull$#!+... I don't know much about the rest of his topics, but the one subject I do have some knowledge of and could have it confirmed, I confirmed it was complete BS. After that, I couldn't finish reading the book because I couldn't hold much weight with what he said after his whole "gouging a person's eye with your thumb and swirling it around in their brain" stuff.
 

canada94

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ballz said:
I remember doing a few of those in school. What a stupid idea... talk about encouraging people to be sheep.

Apparently the schools haven't heard about a lock only keeping out an honest man and all that jazz... Our classroom doors had huge friggin' windows for god's sake.

Completely agree.. I remember during my first "lock-down" we were in the science room.. everything was made of glass.. INCLUDING THE DOOR. Anyone who really wanted to get in, could get in..
 

The Bread Guy

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ballz said:
I remember doing a few of those in school. What a stupid idea... talk about encouraging people to be sheep.
canada94 said:
Completely agree..
I see such drills as keep big groups of untrained folks as safe as possible, as quickly and easily done as possible, until trained, armed pers are on the scene.  Any suggestions for an alternative SOP?
 

canada94

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milnews.ca said:
I see such drills as keep big groups of untrained folks as safe as possible, as quickly and easily done as possible, until trained, armed pers are on the scene.  Any suggestions for an alternative SOP?

Yup! Have police already at the school. My school constantly has police outside dealing with dealers along the Welland Canal.. why not have one within the school?
 

muskrat89

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Completely agree.. I remember during my first "lock-down" we were in the science room.. everything was made of glass.. INCLUDING THE DOOR. Anyone who really wanted to get in, could get in..

As someone who oversees security on a University campus I can tell you this (regardless of whether I agree or not with lockdowns, campus carry, etc) - one of the purposes (benefits?) of lockdown is to provide more barriers to slow the perpetrator down until the police get there. Yes, it easy to blow through a glass door, but navigating through hallways, especially - and classrooms, slows the guy down and presents him/her with more decisions. It also obstructs lines of vision (I know, not with glass) and helps challenge navigation. The real effect of these measures may be minute, but I think in these situations, anything helps.

Further, polics have altered tactics in responding to school shootings. before they used to stage, call SWAT, secure the wounded for the medics, etc. In the police departments I deal with, the response is for the 1st officers on scene to immediately enter the building and focus on nothing other than neutralizing the threat.

Sorry for the tangent
 
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