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2023 UCP Alberta election

brihard

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say nothing short of cancellation of this proposed legislation would be considered a polished turd for you.

I'm going to suspect you are not an Albertan, please correct me if I'm wrong. What is it that those not from Alberta hate so much in Alberta searching for a way to be more autonomous ?

Correct, I’m not an Albertan. I have zero problem with Alberta pursuing its own policies for its own purposes that are constitutional and otherwise legally sound. I don’t like seeing any province abuse legislative processes. For instance, I abhor what Quebec has done over and over in using the Notwithstanding clause to repress language rights, for instance. Now it’s Alberta on deck crafting bad law. Another example from this current bill is the way they want to tear up existing standards of judicial review to protect the provincial government from challenges citizens or organizations may bring in court against impacts of this new law.

I’m not picking on Alberta. If next week New Brunswick, or BC, or Ontario were to pull crap like this, I’d have a similarly strong and negative opinion.

Alberta is trying to shortcut and bypass the due process and checks and balances that Canada’s legal system already has for these concerns. They literally just used them to knock down federal environmental impact assessments that impugned powers constitutionally distributed to the province. Note that I haven’t objected at all; they used the proper, constitutionally sound means of legal recourse.
 

Halifax Tar

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Correct, I’m not an Albertan. I have zero problem with Alberta pursuing its own policies for its own purposes that are constitutional and otherwise legally sound. I don’t like seeing any province abuse legislative processes. For instance, I abhor what Quebec has done over and over in using the Notwithstanding clause to repress language rights, for instance. Now it’s Alberta on deck crafting bad law. Another example from this current bill is the way they want to tear up existing standards of judicial review to protect the provincial government from challenges citizens or organizations may bring in court against impacts of this new law.

I’m not picking on Alberta. If next week New Brunswick, or BC, or Ontario were to pull crap like this, I’d have a similarly strong and negative opinion.

Alberta is trying to shortcut and bypass the due process and checks and balances that Canada’s legal system already has for these concerns. They literally just used them to knock down federal environmental impact assessments that impugned powers constitutionally distributed to the province. Note that I haven’t objected at all; they used the proper, constitutionally sound means of legal recourse.

So DS has sucked back and reloaded on this some what, or intends to. What could she do that would make you go "hmm good for Alberta, do your thing." ?

What if our constitutional process, and legal system and laws are not seen to be working for a segment of our population? Who cannot seem to get traction through our existing system to address that.

I say again, there is a growing division in this county, and DS and this legislation is in response to that. She and it are a symptom, not the cause.
 

Good2Golf

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I’ll need to see more than polish on a turd before I’m particularly impressed on this; it’s easy to course correct when a bunch of people helpfully point out that you’re driving your speedboat directly at a quickly approaching lighthouse.
You mean like HMCS PMO’s course correction on the Freedom Convoy? Leadmark pointing straight at EA….🤔
 

brihard

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So DS has sucked back and reloaded on this some what, or intends to. What could she do that would make you go "hmm good for Alberta, do your thing." ?

What if our constitutional process, and legal system and laws are not seen to be working for a segment of our population? Who cannot seem to get traction through our existing system to address that.

I say again, there is a growing division in this county, and DS and this legislation is in response to that. She and it are a symptom, not the cause.
In this case? Abandon the bill entirely. Its flaws are fundamental. Identify instances where the feds are believed to be encroaching on provincial powers, and use the existing legal mechanisms, as they have recently successfully done.

There are mechanisms for constitutional amendment, and the UCP has, as part of its platform, a position to try to pursue that. I have no issue with them doing so, and starting those negotiations.

I understand this is a symptom, not a cause. You still address harmful symptoms.
 

Halifax Tar

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In this case? Abandon the bill entirely. Its flaws are fundamental. Identify instances where the feds are believed to be encroaching on provincial powers, and use the existing legal mechanisms, as they have recently successfully done.

There are mechanisms for constitutional amendment, and the UCP has, as part of its platform, a position to try to pursue that. I have no issue with them doing so, and starting those negotiations.

I understand this is a symptom, not a cause. You still address harmful symptoms.

Gotcha that's all I needed to know. Thank you.
 

ArmyRick

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In this case? Abandon the bill entirely. Its flaws are fundamental. Identify instances where the feds are believed to be encroaching on provincial powers, and use the existing legal mechanisms, as they have recently successfully done.

There are mechanisms for constitutional amendment, and the UCP has, as part of its platform, a position to try to pursue that. I have no issue with them doing so, and starting those negotiations.

I understand this is a symptom, not a cause. You still address harmful symptoms.
I think when this all said and done, your probably going to be dead wrong.

What DS is trying to do, has more to do with the Trudeau brand of Liberals causing or at the very least worsening this leadership disaster in Ottawa.

Alberta is just tip of the ice berg, I don't want it to happen, but this nonsensical clown leadership continues, I think more provinces will follow. With or without legal support, provinces will start taking matters into their own hands.
 

ArmyRick

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I think the NDP are the only real threat.


And they may be more than a threat. If I read that site right.
Is Rachel Notley still the leader? I believe she is. The best chance she could have given the Alberta NDP is to have stepped down. Alberta give her the heave ho, and call it what you will, an unwritten political rule in Canada, but once you lose, people are not quick to vote for you again.
 

ArmyRick

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Perhaps someone from Alberta can fill me in.

Does Alberta have a rural/urban divide? A Calgary vs Edmonton divide? In Ontario there is definitely a rural/urban divide (and a GTA/Hamilton, Ottawa area vs rest of the province)
 

brihard

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I think when this all said and done, your probably going to be dead wrong.

What DS is trying to do, has more to do with the Trudeau brand of Liberals causing or at the very least worsening this leadership disaster in Ottawa.

Alberta is just tip of the ice berg, I don't want it to happen, but this nonsensical clown leadership continues, I think more provinces will follow. With or without legal support, provinces will start taking matters into their own hands.
Dead wrong about what, exactly? I’m not asking to be difficult, I’m just not tracking between what you said in your reply versus what I quoted. I was describing the legal order for this as it currently exists, which isn’t really an opinion on my part.

Just because I know how much the ‘wall of text’ effect distorts tone, and some self awareness about how I write- my contributions on this thread should all be read as if we were sitting down over beers or coffee having an interesting conversation. I’m not going after anyone personally here; we have a variety of opinions and that’s fine.
 

McG

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Perhaps someone from Alberta can fill me in.

Does Alberta have a rural/urban divide? A Calgary vs Edmonton divide? In Ontario there is definitely a rural/urban divide (and a GTA/Hamilton, Ottawa area vs rest of the province)
Election results tend to have trends that differentiate Edmonton from Calgary, urban from rural, and north from south. But these trends are differences of a handful of percentages (same as what differentiates Alberta from other parts of Canada). The partisans want the map painted in party colours and they love the narrative that regions are monolithically aligned with one party or the other.

I have lived all over this country. I’ve spent more time in Alberta (including recently) than anywhere else. We are not as different as partisans want us to believe, and the narrative of “divides” is a divisive partisan narrative used to inculcate regional political identity and drive votes.
 

CBH99

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Election results tend to have trends that differentiate Edmonton from Calgary, urban from rural, and north from south. But these trends are differences of a handful of percentages (same as what differentiates Alberta from other parts of Canada). The partisans want the map painted in party colours and they love the narrative that regions are monolithically aligned with one party or the other.

I have lived all over this country. I’ve spent more time in Alberta (including recently) than anywhere else. We are not as different as partisans want us to believe, and the narrative of “divides” is a divisive partisan narrative used to inculcate regional political identity and drive votes.
What he said...

But also, as someone who grew up in Calgary but has lived in Edmonton for the past decade or so - Calgary sucks 😉

(Like actually...)
 

dapaterson

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What he said...

But also, as someone who grew up in Calgary but has lived in Edmonton for the past decade or so - Calgary sucks 😉

(Like actually...)
In the immortal words of Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie "Alberta doesn't suck. But Calgary does."

 

Remius

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We’ve all seen what « sovereignty » issues has done to Quebec’s economy. Could Alberta be in fir the same?


Not to mention issues with native groups.


I’ll be interested to see what amendments DS does to address various concerns.
 

CBH99

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I’m genuinely unsure of what people are so concerned about, or why people have an issue with this idea.

The legislation is simply a buffer between Ottawa mandating idiotic or unlawful things. Things that are not actual laws, possibly violate the Charter, or otherwise pose such a significant risk to the best interest of Albertans’


It isn’t about sovereignty in the sense of leaving Canada.

It’s sovereignty in the sense that if Ottawa wants to mandate something extreme again in the future, the province can refuse to comply until the government brings it to court, makes its argument, and is successful.

If the court finds it violates people’s Charter rights, or is inherently unlawful, the province would not have to comply. And why should it?

By the time it actually gets to court & a verdict is ruled, the matter will probably be old news anyway…



If anything, I’d imagine that would make the province substantially more attractive from an investment perspective.

Ottawa wants to do another lockdown because of some nonsense? Don’t worry, you can keep your doors open & customers can still come to your business.

If you own a small local business, don’t worry. You don’t have to worry about openi my at 9am, only to be forced to close by 2pm ‘until further notice’ - you can stay open until a court finds there is reasonable grounds for you to close due to a public health to risk.

Own a firearm and live outside of a major urban area? It’s okay, you don’t have to turn your firearm in just yet.

Not until the government has argued why you, a law abiding citizen who has a license, purchased it lawfully, follow the proper protocols, etc must turn in your legally purchased private property.


The fact that people here in the province actually want Ottawa to be able to micromanage their lives the next time a ‘crisis’ comes along is leaving me baffled.

And if I was an investor, I’d choose the province that won’t randomly shut down on a whim as the place I opened a business.
 

brihard

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I’m genuinely unsure of what people are so concerned about, or why people have an issue with this idea.

The legislation is simply a buffer between Ottawa mandating idiotic or unlawful things. Things that are not actual laws, possibly violate the Charter, or otherwise pose such a significant risk to the best interest of Albertans’


It isn’t about sovereignty in the sense of leaving Canada.

It’s sovereignty in the sense that if Ottawa wants to mandate something extreme again in the future, the province can refuse to comply until the government brings it to court, makes its argument, and is successful.

If the court finds it violates people’s Charter rights, or is inherently unlawful, the province would not have to comply. And why should it?

By the time it actually gets to court & a verdict is ruled, the matter will probably be old news anyway…



If anything, I’d imagine that would make the province substantially more attractive from an investment perspective.

Ottawa wants to do another lockdown because of some nonsense? Don’t worry, you can keep your doors open & customers can still come to your business.

If you own a small local business, don’t worry. You don’t have to worry about openi my at 9am, only to be forced to close by 2pm ‘until further notice’ - you can stay open until a court finds there is reasonable grounds for you to close due to a public health to risk.

Own a firearm and live outside of a major urban area? It’s okay, you don’t have to turn your firearm in just yet.

Not until the government has argued why you, a law abiding citizen who has a license, purchased it lawfully, follow the proper protocols, etc must turn in your legally purchased private property.


The fact that people here in the province actually want Ottawa to be able to micromanage their lives the next time a ‘crisis’ comes along is leaving me baffled.

And if I was an investor, I’d choose the province that won’t randomly shut down on a whim as the place I opened a business.
Weird choice of examples. Alberta’s COVID restrictions were all from provincial laws and enacted by the provincial government. Ottawa did not impose COVID lockdowns or restrictions on Alberta businesses. Alberta did.
 

dimsum

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I’m genuinely unsure of what people are so concerned about, or why people have an issue with this idea.

The legislation is simply a buffer between Ottawa mandating idiotic or unlawful things. Things that are not actual laws, possibly violate the Charter, or otherwise pose such a significant risk to the best interest of Albertans’
I'm not in, or from, AB so I haven't really been following this.

However, how would it affect federally-managed areas such as CFBs Cold Lake, Edmonton, and Wainwright?

If, for example, AB decides not to follow [insert federal ruling here], do the provincial or federal rules apply on base and in the training areas?
 

Lumber

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Weird choice of examples. Alberta’s COVID restrictions were all from provincial laws and enacted by the provincial government. Ottawa did not impose COVID lockdowns or restrictions on Alberta businesses. Alberta did.
Hey look! We found one of those people I alluded to before: the ones who blame Trudeau and the LPC for everything they don't like , even if it's not something that they were actually responsible for.
 
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