2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Remius]

Hypocrisy exists in leagues on either side. But as @Brad Sallows pointed out, some aspects are just personal beliefs (I chose beliefs over other words intentionally so as not to provoke a larger fight).

As I mentioned above, before one was to even consider bringing the Legal aspect to the forefront a lot of work would need to be done to find alternative solutions that are beneficial. Those support structures don't necessarily need to include Universal Child Care - but there does need to be a way to assist both the pregnant women and young mothers financially - you could structure it however you want depends on what side the aisle you are on.


If I was running for the CPC, I'd include a heavy part of Political Reform - to change ethics laws, and aim for massive criminal penalties for Public Servants who abuse their roles for financial and other gains.

Right.

But that is where if government wants to regulate things like birth, birth control and such they should be prepared to financially enable it.

Criminalizing it is not the way to go in my mind.

If the goal is to save lives and again that definition changes based on beliefs, the understanding what the main causes and reasons people get abortions needs addressing.

The top reasons in the US (sorry but that was my quick google search) for example are:

Financial
Timing
Partner related issues
Other (incest, rape etc)

Sometimes more than one factor can come into play.

Financial is the biggest one. Addressing that alone would likely decrease abortions.
Timing. That’s a bit harder but is linked to the first one mostly. And pressures from family etc
Partner issues is also harder to deal with as many men push their partners to get abortions for some of the same reason above.
The other stuff is touchy though. Rape and incest is essentially forced pregnancy. But their are creative ways of trying to get a baby to term.

But government would have to invest.

 

[Altair]

Right.

But that is where if government wants to regulate things like birth, birth control and such they should be prepared to financially enable it.

Criminalizing it is not the way to go in my mind.

If the goal is to save lives and again that definition changes based on beliefs, the understanding what the main causes and reasons people get abortions needs addressing.

The top reasons in the US (sorry but that was my quick google search) for example are:

Financial
Timing
Partner related issues
Other (incest, rape etc)

Sometimes more than one factor can come into play.

Financial is the biggest one. Addressing that alone would likely decrease abortions.
Timing. That’s a bit harder but is linked to the first one mostly. And pressures from family etc
Partner issues is also harder to deal with as many men push their partners to get abortions for some of the same reason above.
The other stuff is touchy though. Rape and incest is essentially forced pregnancy. But their are creative ways of trying to get a baby to term.

But government would have to invest.

The problem is squaring the circle of moral issues versus financial ones.

The SOCON wing of the CPC is morally conservative, they want to address abortion and conversion therapy, but they are also fiscally conservative, meaning they don't want to provide costly social programs that would encourage women to have children and not seek abortions as a solution.

The best way to squard that circle? Address the first part and ignore the second part. How does on do that? By criminalizing certain abortions. Or if you're in the USA, criminalize almost all abortions.

And then when the child is born, success, it can start to take care of itself. Freeloader doesn't deserve access to social programs that cost tax dollars. There, moral and fiscal conservatism achieved.

And so long as that part of the CPC is around, a good 60 percent of the electorate will not vote for the CPC. But how to rid the party of that part of it? It cannot, because that part of the party decides who wins leadership contests. So the leader of the CPC has to cater to them despite them making it so he cannot be elected. And then that leader gets turfed if he loses (Scheer) or turfed if he tries to pivot away from them (O'Toole)

Harper was a genius because he was able to keep the SOCONs quiet for near a decade. They are not quiet anymore.

 

[KevinB]

The problem is squaring the circle of moral issues versus financial ones.

The SOCON wing of the CPC is morally conservative, they want to address abortion and conversion therapy, but they are also fiscally conservative, meaning they don't want to provide costly social programs that would encourage women to have children and not seek abortions as a solution.

The best way to squard that circle? Address the first part and ignore the second part. How does on do that? By criminalizing certain abortions. Or if you're in the USA, criminalize almost all abortions.

And then when the child is born, success, it can start to take care of itself. Freeloader doesn't deserve access to social programs that cost tax dollars. There, moral and fiscal conservatism achieved.

And so long as that part of the CPC is around, a good 60 percent of the electorate will not vote for the CPC. But how to rid the party of that part of it? It cannot, because that part of the party decides who wins leadership contests. So the leader of the CPC has to cater to them despite them making it so he cannot be elected. And then that leader gets turfed if he loses (Scheer) or turfed if he tries to pivot away from them (O'Toole)

Harper was a genius because he was able to keep the SOCONs quiet for near a decade. They are not quiet anymore.

You are 100% right.
There need to be tactical goals and incentives, to accomplish the longer strategic plan.

You can be fiscally conservative, and realize that in many cases that those are not good areas to be financially conservative on, because it hampers other parts of your platform.

 

[suffolkowner]

The problem is where does the CPC go from here? I can't see McKay being the answer if O'Toole was too moderate and if that is the way it's going why not just join the PPC? And yes policy is going to trump the personal ethics of Trudeau and it's not going to work in the reverse until the CPC can establish some kind of history on these issues. Once again it will be dragged into the Global Warming/Abortion/etc.. debate because it keeps putting itself there by turfing moderates what else can the public think?

Birth is as good a line as one can draw when it comes to life/children. At times in the past its been 7 days or longer after. Women naturally and constantly abort fetuses all the time though their reproductive lives

 

[suffolkowner]

A like and a trolling! How to know you are in a politics thread

 

[Brad Sallows]

But the hypocrisy of the traditional pro life camp is sometimes astounding.

What do you think of as hypocritical?

A person doesn't have to be in favour of any social programs whatsoever to simply be against killing.

Positions for the death penalty and against abortion are not inconsistent; one person has been found guilty and one is assuredly innocent.

If "pro-life" is just a euphemism for "against abortion", deal with it head-on instead of pretending it has to conform to some pedantic list of conditions.

 

[Altair]

What do you think of as hypocritical?

A person doesn't have to be in favour of any social programs whatsoever to simply be against killing.

Ah yes, so one wants a woman to keep the child and not abort it, but wont support the woman or child afterwards.

Nevermind the fact that support for women and child via social programs and things like universal childcare will lead to less women choosing to have abortions.

But as you said without quite saying it, its not so much about wanting women to have keep/have children so much as it is you believe that abortion is murder and you want to stop murder. Best way to do that is via legislation.

But screw supporting them, woman and child. They made their choice, woman to have sex, child to dare survive childbirth.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Ah yes, so one wants a woman to keep the child and not abort it, but wont support the woman or child afterwards.

Yes, basically. Whether you like them or not, there are people who expect others to deal with their own problems without making someone else pay.

I fully realize that some welfare policies might reduce abortions. You seem to be trying really hard to miss the point that a person can be against abortion without needing to be in favour of anything else.

Don't try to pick a side for me in this debate. Stick to your own.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Right wing voters are really in a pickle.

Any group that tries to break away from the CPC to form a party will be immediately attacked by both the LPC and CPC.

LPC will fear a more centered group of Canadians who embody left and ring wing ideas.

CPC will fear losing power and influence and find ways to attack them, believe they did that with the PPC.

Unfortunately shitty types in the CPC will flock to a new party to try and try to bend it to their own views.

Moderate Conservatives or whatever you want to call them are basically prisoners to the party.

 

[Good2Golf]

Right wing voters are really in a pickle.

Any group that tries to break away from the CPC to form a party will be immediately attacked by both the LPC and CPC.

LPC will fear a more centered group of Canadians who embody left and ring wing ideas.

CPC will fear losing power and influence and find ways to attack them, believe they did that with the PPC.

Unfortunately shitty types in the CPC will flock to a new party to try and try to bend it to their own views.

Moderate Conservatives or whatever you want to call them are basically prisoners to the party.

Give it 18-24 months to see how a PC-CPC-PPC reformation shapes up..

 

[Rd651]

Kind of paints O’Toole as either an unwitting (thus naive, and weak) or deliberate (and thus disingenuous to the small-C elements) conspirators to the SOCONs. That a party would rather lose a seat to the Liberals in an election when every seat counted, than see MacKay be part of the party’s caucus is prof of the myopia of the growing extremism of the CPC. O’Toole no doubt either knew it, or is an unworthy leader for letting this happen on his watch.

Agreed. I know Peter still does stuff for vets when he can as well, on a personal and family level. It's always refreshing to see.

Great comment! Peter is definately for the troops!!

 

[Remius]

Yes, basically. Whether you like them or not, there are people who expect others to deal with their own problems without making someone else pay.

I fully realize that some welfare policies might reduce abortions. You seem to be trying really hard to miss the point that a person can be against abortion without needing to be in favour of anything else.

Don't try to pick a side for me in this debate. Stick to your own.

But that is where the hypocrisy of some on the pro life side. Expect others do deal with their own problems but if abortion is their choice and to terminate a pregnancy then no they can’t.

The social programs they don’t want would and do reduce abortion rates. But they are against that.

It doesn’t make sense. Because even if you banned abortions they would still happen and worse more women would likely die as a result.

If the goal is the sanctity of life, then being against social programs that encourage life and the carrying to term is hypocritical.

I agree that someone can be pro life and be against social programs to encourage said life. But it is hypocritical.

If you address the reasons WHY women choose abortions you will significantly reduce said abortions.

The issue is that religious dogma weighs heavily in the debate. It’s the same as end of life rights. Religious norms are a big drive against it despite people reaching a point where they just want to end their lives in peace and in their own terms.

 

[Remius]

Give it 18-24 months to see how a PC-CPC-PPC reformation shapes up..

I suspect in 24 months we’ll be seing another LPC win. CP, CPC will not be merging with PPC.

I see an even bigger split again.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

So.

Anyone here willing to be swayed or have their mind's changed about abortion from this discussion?

Anyone?

Bueller?

So what is the point of this derailment?

 

[Altair]

Yes, basically. Whether you like them or not, there are people who expect others to deal with their own problems without making someone else pay.

I know.

I also know your viewpoint is widely unpopular and i hope the new leader of the CPC fully endorses your viewpoint on the matter.

 

[Altair]

But that is where the hypocrisy of some on the pro life side. Expect others do deal with their own problems but if abortion is their choice and to terminate a pregnancy then no they can’t.

The social programs they don’t want would and do reduce abortion rates. But they are against that.

It doesn’t make sense. Because even if you banned abortions they would still happen and worse more women would likely die as a result.

If the goal is the sanctity of life, then being against social programs that encourage life and the carrying to term is hypocritical.

I agree that someone can be pro life and be against social programs to encourage said life. But it is hypocritical.

If you address the reasons WHY women choose abortions you will significantly reduce said abortions.

The issue is that religious dogma weighs heavily in the debate. It’s the same as end of life rights. Religious norms are a big drive against it despite people reaching a point where they just want to end their lives in peace and in their own terms.

The fact that the cpc needs a new leader and we are talking about abortion is indicative of why the CPC wont be winning anytime soon.

This would never happen in a LPC leadership talk, the issue is settled. In the CPC its still an open question. And you just know its going to be brought up in the leadership race.

Its why i love chatting to people like brad about it. The fact its being discussed at all is nothing but a huge L for the CPC but since its the only party outside of the PPC that will allow anti abortion voices and votes, thats where the sizeable minority of canadians gather and as such they hold considerable sway in the CPC.

 

[Good2Golf]

Back on the rails…

I suspect in 24 months we’ll be seing another LPC win. CP, CPC will not be merging with PPC.

I see an even bigger split again.

No, I was noting how a 3-way split/race would go, ie. PC-reborn, and CPC & PPC continue as standing parties and see where those three parties lead. If the PCs break off, I can see the PPC support deflating and some likely to move back to a ‘more-right’ CPC as the soft, left-wingers head to the PCs. I’m sure there also be some bleed off from the Blue Libs into the PCs (same reason some PPC will come back to the CPC). In the overall spectrum, I think a PC break-off will actual see a reduction of overall LPC levels, so I think we’ll see a battle on the left as well as the right. Then the 2024 race is to build the biggest coalition. Trudeau’s actually doing some damage to the middle-class with his approach to the Freedom Conviy, so anyone who thinks that O’Toole was the only victim should pay attention to 2024. Trudeau may have to break out some tears and an apology when he sees the full impact of his broad brush of racism, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, etc. to the Ottawa protesters.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So.

Anyone here willing to be swayed or have their mind's changed about abortion from this discussion?

Anyone?

Bueller?

So what is the point of this derailment?

Actually, I have changed my mind!

 

[Remius]

Back on the rails…

No, I was noting how a 3-way split/race would go, ie. PC-reborn, and CPC & PPC continue as standing parties and see where those three parties lead. If the PCs break off, I can see the PPC support deflating and some likely to move back to a ‘more-right’ CPC as the soft, left-wingers head to the PCs. I’m sure there also be some bleed off from the Blue Libs into the PCs (same reason some PPC will come back to the CPC). In the overall spectrum, I think a PC break-off will actual see a reduction of overall LPC levels, so I think we’ll see a battle on the left as well as the right. Then the 2024 race is to build the biggest coalition. Trudeau’s actually doing some damage to the middle-class with his approach to the Freedom Conviy, so anyone who thinks that O’Toole was the only victim should pay attention to 2024. Trudeau may have to break out some tears and an apology when he sees the full impact of his broad brush of racism, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, etc. to the Ottawa protesters.

Ah i see what you mean.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I also know your viewpoint is widely unpopular

My efforts to understand how some people view an issue do not mean their views are my own.