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2016 Oregon Standoff/Occupation & related (split fm US Election: 2016)

Kilo_302

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It will be interesting to see how the Republican candidates deal with this situation. This definitely meets the FBI's own definition of terrorism. More results of the dangerous game that the right plays in the US. Combine a hatred of all things government, a well armed citizenry, and throw in some dog-whistle racist politics about Obama here and there and you get situations like this. The inflammatory rhetoric on the Republican side for the last few years should be reigned in.

Interesting to note too how the media covers this. Again, this is straight up treason and terrorism.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/index.html

Armed protesters have taken over a building in a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, accusing officials of unfairly punishing ranchers who refused to sell their land.

One them is Ammon Bundy, the 40-year-old son of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who is well-known for anti-government action.

He spoke by phone to CNN on Sunday at 8 a.m. ET. Asked several times what he and those with him want, he answered in vague terms, saying that they want the federal government to restore the "people's constitutional rights."

"This refuge -- it has been destructive to the people of the county and to the people of the area," he said.

"People need to be aware that we've become a system where government is actually claiming and using and defending people's rights, and they are doing that against the people."

The group is inside part of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns after gathering outside for a demonstration supporting Dwight and Steven Hammond, father and son ranchers who were convicted of arson.

Prosecutors said the Hammonds set a fire that burned about 130 acres in 2001, to cover up poaching. The father and son were sentenced to five years in prison.

The Hammonds said they set the fire to reduce the growth of invasive plants and to protect their property from wildfires, CNN affiliate KTVZ reported.

'We are not terrorists'

After the march Saturday, the armed protesters broke into the refuge's unoccupied building and refused to leave. Officials have said there are no government employees in the building.
Armed protesters rally to support Oregon rancher

Armed protesters rally to support Oregon rancher 02:05

"We will be here as long as it takes," Bundy said. "We have no intentions of using force upon anyone, (but) if force is used against us, we would defend ourselves."

Ammon Bundy said that the group in Oregon was armed, but that he would not describe it as a militia. He declined to say how many people were with him, telling CNN on Sunday that giving that information might jeopardize "operational security."

The elder Bundy drew national attention last year after staging a standoff with federal authorities over a Bureau of Land Management dispute.

"We are not terrorists," Ammon Bundy said. "We are concerned citizens and realize we have to act if we want to pass along anything to our children."

He wouldn't call his group a militia, but others are.

"I don't like the militia's methods," local resident Monica McCannon told KTVZ. "They had their rally. Now it's time for them to go home. People are afraid of them."

A U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service representative said the agency and the Bureau of Land Management are aware of the armed protesters.

"While the situation is ongoing, the main concern is employee safety, and we can confirm that no federal staff were in the building at the time of the initial incident," the representative said. "We will continue to monitor the situation."

What the protesters want

When asked what it would take for the protesters to leave, Bundy did not offer specifics. He said he and those with him are prepared to stay put for days or weeks.
Cliven Bundy's ranch west of Mesquite, Nevada, on April 11, 2014, was the site of a tense standoff between him and the federal government. Bundy and other ranchers have been locked in a dispute with the government for decades over where they can graze their cattle and how they use the land. Click through the images to see what set it off.
8 photos: Land Rights

"We feel that we will occupy this as long as necessary," he said.

"We are using the wildlife refuge as a place for individuals across the United States to come and assist in helping the people of Harney County claim back their lands and resources," he said.

"The people will need to be able to use the land and resources without fear as free men and women. We know it will take some time."

He did not explicitly call on authorities to commute the prison sentences for the Hammonds, who are scheduled to report to prison Monday. But he said their case illustrates officials' "abuse" of power.

"Now that people such as the Hammonds are taking a stand and not selling their ranches, they are being prosecuted in their own courts as terrorists and putting them in prison for five years," Bundy said.

He said the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge has taken over the space of 100 ranches since the early 1900s.

"They are continuing to expand the refuge at the expense of the ranchers and miners," Bundy said.

He also said Harney County, in southeastern Oregon, went from one of the state's wealthiest counties to one of the poorest.

CNN has not independently corroborated Bundy's claims.

"I want to emphasis that the American people are wondering why they can't seem to get ahead or why everything is costing more and you are getting less, and that is because the federal government is taking and using the land and resources," Bundy said.

"And if it is continued, it will put the people in poverty."

What the feds say

Acting U.S. Attorney Billy J. Williams of Oregon gave a starkly different perspective on the arson case.

His office declined to comment on the situation at the wildlife refuge Saturday, but it cited an opinion piece written by Williams in the Burns Times Herald last month defending the federal prosecutors' actions in the Hammonds case.


Protesters march for Oregon ranchers 02:05

"Five years ago, a federal grand jury charged Dwight and Steven Hammond with committing arson on public lands and endangering firefighters," Williams wrote for the newspaper. "Steven Hammond was also found guilty of committing a second arson in 2006."

The prosecutor said witnesses saw the Hammonds illegally slaughter a herd of deer on public land.

"At least seven deer were shot with others limping or running from the scene," Williams wrote.

He said a teenage relative of the Hammonds testified that Steven Hammond gave him a box of matches and told him to start the blaze. "The fires destroyed evidence of the deer slaughter and took about 130 acres of public land out of public use for two years," the prosecutor wrote.

Williams also disputed the notion that the Hammonds were prosecuted as terrorists, as Bundy suggested.

"The jury was neither asked if the Hammonds were terrorists, nor were defendants ever charged with or accused of terrorism," Williams wrote. "Suggesting otherwise is simply flat-out wrong."

 
Kilo_302 said:
Interesting to note too how the media covers this. Again, this is straight up treason and terrorism.

You're joking right? Treason? How about we take a closer look at that. In the US, the legal definition of Treason is as follows:

"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

Nowhere are these individuals waging war against the US, nor are they giving assistance to its enemies. End of discussion.

And you say the media is covering this up? Lets take a look at some popular American news sites:

Fox News: It is currently on their front page (sure, it isnt in big bold letters, but it is indeed there) - http://puu.sh/miCV0.jpg  (these are screenshots of their sites at the time I made this post). Note, I'm referencing the video + the article above it
CNN: While it is not on their front page, there are multiple articles listed if I use their search function, along with the article you posted.
CNBC: It is currently under their top news coverage - http://puu.sh/miDhi.png

This is hardly a media cover up, it just isn't as "news breaking" as you would like it to be.

And please tell me how "some dog-whistle racist politics about Obama" falls into *any* of this?
 
milnews.ca said:
#YallQueda is now trending world wide on Twitter. 

#YeeHawd

#YokelHaram

#VanillaISIS are also trending.
 
Long on artistry.

Short on logic.

Par for the course.
 
thehare said:
You're joking right? Treason? How about we take a closer look at that. In the US, the legal definition of Treason is as follows:

Nowhere are these individuals waging war against the US, nor are they giving assistance to its enemies. End of discussion.

And you say the media is covering this up? Lets take a look at some popular American news sites:

Fox News: It is currently on their front page (sure, it isnt in big bold letters, but it is indeed there) - http://puu.sh/miCV0.jpg  (these are screenshots of their sites at the time I made this post). Note, I'm referencing the video + the article above it
CNN: While it is not on their front page, there are multiple articles listed if I use their search function, along with the article you posted.
CNBC: It is currently under their top news coverage - http://puu.sh/miDhi.png

This is hardly a media cover up, it just isn't as "news breaking" as you would like it to be.

And please tell me how "some dog-whistle racist politics about Obama" falls into *any* of this?

I never said the media is covering this up. I said it would be interesting to see how they cover it. We're quick to apply the term "terrorism" to many crimes that don't fit the bill. This situation hasn't devolved into violence yet, but if it does, it should be considered terrorism, as terrorism is politically motivated violence. And if it does result in violence against local, state and federal authorities, I think that treason could be applied. If you're occupying a federal building with arms, what is it but an attack on the government?

I also don't think it's a coincidence that right-wing militias and the like are seeing a resurgence under Obama. Elected Republican officials have openly questioned where he was born, his religion etc. This is beyond simple policy disagreements. They know they can raise the ire of a certain segment of the population by using what are thinly veiled racial attacks.

This creates an atmosphere where these people are far more likely to feel their actions are justified, even sanctioned by certain Republican politicians. The outrage over anything and everything Obama has done is at times, I think, related to race. Again, certain politicians on the right leave little to the imagination with some of their comments. They know what they're doing, and they're playing a dangerous game that could blow up in their faces.


 
Kilo_302 said:
.... terrorism is politically motivated violence....

No. Terrorism is the creation of terror for political purposes.  It may or may not include violence.  It may include creating a climate of fear to inspire a hope of change.  Or of maintaining the status quo.

Violence, if politically motivated, and if externally generated, is an act of war.  If internally generated it is an act of insurgency.  The US is in the unique position of having a body of laws that actually support the concept of legitimate insurgency arising from the need to legitimate their own insurgency.  (Not sure that the consequences of that were fully appreciated at the time).

But the oath of allegiance demands:

"....I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic"
 
Chris Pook said:
No. Terrorism is the creation of terror for political purposes.  It may or may not include violence.  It may include creating a climate of fear to inspire a hope of change.  Or of maintaining the status quo.

Violence, if politically motivated, and if externally generated, is an act of war.  If internally generated it is an act of insurgency.  The US is in the unique position of having a body of laws that actually support the concept of legitimate insurgency arising from the need to legitimate their own insurgency.  (Not sure that the consequences of that were fully appreciated at the time).

But the oath of allegiance demands:

"....I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

Are you of the opinion then that this is a legitimate insurgency? If it is illegitimate, would you agree that it is terrorism or an act of war?
 
Kilo_302 said:
I never said the media is covering this up. I said it would be interesting to see how they cover it. We're quick to apply the term "terrorism" to many crimes that don't fit the bill. This situation hasn't devolved into violence yet, but if it does, it should be considered terrorism, as terrorism is politically motivated violence. And if it does result in violence against local, state and federal authorities, I think that treason could be applied. If you're occupying a federal building with arms, what is it but an attack on the government?

I also don't think it's a coincidence that right-wing militias and the like are seeing a resurgence under Obama. Elected Republican officials have openly questioned where he was born, his religion etc. This is beyond simple policy disagreements. They know they can raise the ire of a certain segment of the population by using what are thinly veiled racial attacks.

This creates an atmosphere where these people are far more likely to feel their actions are justified, even sanctioned by certain Republican politicians. The outrage over anything and everything Obama has done is at times, I think, related to race. Again, certain politicians on the right leave little to the imagination with some of their comments. They know what they're doing, and they're playing a dangerous game that could blow up in their faces.

1) My apologies, I misread what you posted about the media coverage.

2) I think even if this devolves into violence it would be too quick to call it terrorism. Many politically motivated protests turn violent, and I have yet to see terrorism charges be laid there either.

3) Oregon is an open carry state. While I know what I am going to say is a bit of a stretch, they didn't shoot their way into the building and barricade themselves indoors, they occupied an empty building, while exercising their right to open carry. Besides, as Chris pointed out, there is a massive difference between what these individuals have done (and may do), to waging war against the US.

4) It may also have to do with the fact that Obama is attempting to circumvent Congress by passing an executive order on firearms, a right guaranteed under their constitution. Not everything is a result of slander in the media, some groups have serious qualms with how the POTUS has acted while in office. Again, his actions have nothing to do with his race, and trying to create a strawman where people who disagree with him have racist tendencies fails to progress this conversation anywhere meaningful.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Are you of the opinion then that this is a legitimate insurgency? If it is illegitimate, would you agree that it is terrorism or an act of war?

I would say it is too soon to say.

There are some reports that these are outsiders from the county who are just trying to trigger a wider action across the US, but I am unsure where these reports came from nor do I know the motive behind the reports. It wouldn't be the first time the media has lopsidedly covered an event for their own political agenda.
 
Chris Pook said:
No. Terrorism is the creation of terror for political purposes.  It may or may not include violence.  It may include creating a climate of fear to inspire a hope of change.  Or of maintaining the status quo.
Good points - here's how the FBI defines it ...
... "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

    Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
    Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
    Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term "federal crime of terrorism" as an offense that:

    Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
    Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.) ...
From the outside looking in, it looks like there may be a lot of fit with these definitions.  That said, this hasn't been tried in a court of law yet, we don't know what we're not hearing, and all are presumed innocent until tried.
thehare said:
... While I know what I am going to say is a bit of a stretch, they didn't shoot their way into the building and barricade themselves indoors, they occupied an empty building, while exercising their right to open carry ...
That may be true in a word-by-word sense, but it's still a federal government facility that they're not leaving peacefully.  How many would say the same thing if these guys occupied a government office that was empty for the weekend or a stat holiday?
thehare said:
... some groups have serious qualms with how the POTUS has acted while in office ...
Fair ball - it's the form of that opposition that's in question here.
 
Are these guys actually willing to use deadly force to advance their cause? They seem pissed off and armed, but likely not to shoot at anyone unless they're fired on. You need 3 things for something to be a deadly force thread: Opportunity (check), capability (check), intent (not so sure).
 
These people should be granted at least the same level of tolerance as the Occupy Wall Street crew - months of toleration.  Sure they are armed, as it is their constitutional right.  I just hope the federal cops can control themselves.  They love mass butchery.
 
Rocky Mountains said:
I just hope the federal cops can control themselves. They love mass butchery.
            :not-again:
 
Rocky Mountains said:
These people should be granted at least the same level of tolerance as the Occupy Wall Street crew - months of toleration.  Sure they are armed, as it is their constitutional right.  I just hope the federal cops can control themselves.  They love mass butchery.
Completely agree here. We didn't clean up the Occupy camps, guns blazing, even when assaults, rapes, and drug overdoses were rampant.
 
That may be true in a word-by-word sense, but it's still a federal government facility that they're not leaving peacefully.  How many would say the same thing if these guys occupied a government office that was empty for the weekend or a stat holiday?

While I cannot speak for others, for me as long as the reasons for the action are legitimate then I do not care who is carrying it out.

Fair ball - it's the form of that opposition that's in question here.

This leads into the debate of what is a "legitimate" reason for armed resistance against your government. In the US, as brought up by Chris, their pledge of allegiance states:

"[...]I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic [...]"

So, would an over reaching government that is intending on circumventing Congress to limit Constitutional rights fall into this category? It should be noted that the intent of this group is not entirely known yet, and trying to have a discussion when this is the case isn't exactly possible (as I would likely just be making this up as I go), but I am just trying to make the argument that there are scenarios where it is necessary for armed resistance against your government.

This isn't even the first case of such an event occurring in the US, one only has to look up the Battle of Athens for a precedence.

Of course, I would also make the case that before armed resistance takes place, all forms of peaceful diplomacy should have been tried first, and only when those have failed should armed insurrection occur.
 
Whatever their motivation is, there's no questions we're seeing a double standard in terms of response. Now this could be just reflection of the strategic/tactical situation.

The site is far from populated areas, so it's easier to wait them out.
The militia have called for others across the country to rise up, being cognizant of Waco etc, the Feds don't want slain "heroes of the Republic" all over the news again.
These guys are well armed, and probably know how to use their weapons to a certain extent.

However, the National Guard was called out in Baltimore and Ferguson. A situation where an armed force has openly called for resistance to the Federal government is a bit more serious in my opinion. The government response has been noticeably muted. Again, this could be for good reason, but it's not good as far as optics are concerned. There are some choice tweets at this link ridiculing the initial media coverage as well as the militia themselves.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/oregon-under-attack-anger-as-armed-white-militia-takes-control-of-a-us-government-building-to-a6794421.html

On another note, members of the militia are posting "goodbye videos." People are comparing these guys to a Western jihadi movement which goes a bit far, but there's no question there are parallels. One almost hopes the FBI makes this guy's wishes come true.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/3/1465762/-No-Fed-Action-Planned-but-Oregon-Militia-Loons-Post-Hilarious-Goodbye-Videos


 
Excellent piece from (yes a Socialist magazine) Jacobin underlining that no one should be calling for the state to use violence in this situation (I myself am guilty of this). Firstly, because it helps the militia cause, but more importantly, because the US state itself is not legitimate at this juncture.

Through the prism of the US election, it's clear that there are SOME overlaps in terms of grievances on the socialist left and the far right.

Incidentally, there's also a quote from Cliven Bundy that shows just how racist many of these movements are, as well as the white supremacist roots of their specific interpretation of the US Constitution.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/01/malheur-militia-movement-oregon-hammond-bundy-waco/

A group of armed men are holed up today in the tiny headquarters of the Malheur Federal Wildlife Refuge in rural Oregon, camping with their food and guns in a handful of government buildings.

They are right-wing militiamen from across the country. They say they stand for liberty, property rights, and the state of Oregon, and that they are protesting against the mighty injustice that has been done to the Hammonds, a father, Dwight, and his son, Steven: ranchers who face a five-year sentence for setting illegal fires on Bureau of Land Management land. In their eyes, the militiamen have occupied buildings that are the seat of illegal federal domination of area ranchers.

The Hammonds were arrested and jailed in 2011 for two arsons, in 2001 and 2006, which burned dozens of acres of federal land. The Hammonds say the fires were range management burns started on their own property, and though they were convicted, the judge in the case sentenced the elderly Dwight to three months in prison, and sent Steven to jail for a year and a day — terms far shorter than the federal mandated sentencing guideline of five years, specified in the 1996 Federal Antiterrorism Effective Death Penalty Act. The federal government appealed the decision, and the Ninth Circuit Court upheld the mandated five-year sentence.

The Hammonds — due to enter prison today — have disavowed the militiamen, who are led by Ammon Bundy and his two brothers. The Bundy brothers are the sons of Cliven Bundy, a Nevada rancher who held his own standoff with the Bureau of Land Management in 2014 in protest of grazing fees for cattle. When BLM rangers tried to confiscate five hundred cattle they said were grazing illegally on public land, Bundy sought justice outside the courts, calling over fifty supporters, many armed, to defend them.

The standoff was reported widely, and received support from Fox News and numerous politicians, including Rand Paul. Although the Hammond case and the Bundy standoff happened in different states, their grievances reside in a wider context of landowner dissatisfaction with federal land management. They adhere to an idiosyncratic legal interpretation of federal law which claims that individual states and their citizens hold rightful title to public lands, not the government.

For many supporters the cause of the Hammonds’ freedom represents a specific struggle — decades of rancher dissatisfaction with government — but the Bundy brothers claim to be equal opportunity patriots and present the occupation as a casus belli for right-wing radicals of many stripes.

The interpretation of the US Constitution and the armed strategy favored by the gunmen are both rooted in racist Christian militias like the 1970s Posse Comitatus and the armed force that Ammon Bundy and his brothers have summoned through social media are likely riddled with white supremacists. The movement the Bundys claim to represent is suffused with racism and while Ammon sounded somewhat bewildered during an early morning CNN interview, the militia members standing alongside him have links to known hate groups.

Ammon’s father, Cliven, shared his views on black people at a press conference during the 2014 Nevada standoff:

They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.

On Twitter, Ammon shows his hand a bit more subtly; an account purporting to be Ammon has claimed the militiamen’s “peaceful protest” is morally superior to that of Black Lives Matter because it has disrupted no private property or commerce. By triggering a week-long school closure, it appears to have disrupted both.

But there is no doubt that these militiamen have the nation’s attention. The response from many progressives has been loud: clamoring for the world to call the Oregon gunmen terrorists. And while that term is a fraught one, it is essential for us to raise our voices, contrasting how the state and media treat these gunmen with how they treat the black women, children, and men gunned down by police, or the protesters that fight against police violence. Similarly, rebuking media who call the Oregon gunmen “protesters” offers an important corrective to widespread Islamophobia in the press.

But what we must not do is call for the police to move in with the tear gas and rubber bullets of Ferguson and Baltimore, or the live rounds of MOVE or Wounded Knee, because equal injustice is not justice done.

It’s no surprise that liberals are invoking state action, calling the gunmen seditious, traitors, implying their support of a violent government response. Esquire’s Charles Pierce writes:

This is an act of armed sedition against lawful authority. That is all that it is, and that is quite enough. This is not “an expression of anti-government sentiment . . . These are men with guns who have declared themselves outside the law. These are men with guns who have taken something that belongs to all of us. These are traitors and thieves who got away with this dangerous nonsense once, and have been encouraged to get away with it again.

The improbable logic of many liberals is that state violence can be held to a moral rubric, that the deeply corrupt American state, bound to the functional psychopaths of the one percent who rule it, can be induced to be fair.

It cannot. The current US state is racist and venal; it doesn’t call the Oregon gunmen terrorists and doesn’t mow them down because their occupation cannot threaten it even a fraction as much as Black Lives Matter actions have. The right-wing militia movement is virulent and dangerous, and its ideals nourish the worldview of people like Dylann Roof, but Black Lives Matter questions the very legitimacy of our society. That threat, and systemic racism, decides when the government pulls the trigger; mass action, not words, will hold it to account.

How we respond to those calling for blood in Oregon makes manifest the crucial dividing line between liberals and socialists.

A socialist approaches the state with critical caution. She might call for the incarceration of a rapist, but she knows only a people’s challenge to misogyny and capitalism can end rape culture. She demands police are sacked and jailed for their racist murders, and she fights to reform the police to spare lives, but she also fights against the gentrification of communities and the criminalization of the marginalized that the police routinely enforce.

Though we hate and fear the worldview the Oregon gunmen profess, subjecting them to the same brutality the state metes out against black people would simply empower the militia movement. Ammon might call this occupation peaceful, but there are people hunkered in that refuge who are ready to die for their beliefs. Giving them their martyrs would only strengthen their cause.

The racist and radical right, while spared the crackdown experienced by the marginalized, the Left, and the poor have also been brutally put down in recent times. In Ruby Ridge, Idaho, a white supremacist waged a standoff that ended in the death of his wife and young son; in Waco, a tense standoff between federal agents and the Branch Davidian doomsday cult led to conflagration and massacre in which seventy-six people died.

These events fuel the virulent, aggrieved entitlement of the Right; both names are legends on the lips of the militiamen and their supporters. Strategy and human mercy demand that we not add Malheur to this grisly list.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Whatever their motivation is, there's no questions we're seeing a double standard in terms of response. Now this could be just reflection of the strategic/tactical situation.

The site is far from populated areas, so it's easier to wait them out.
The militia have called for others across the country to rise up, being cognizant of Waco etc, the Feds don't want slain "heroes of the Republic" all over the news again.
These guys are well armed, and probably know how to use their weapons to a certain extent.

However, the National Guard was called out in Baltimore and Ferguson. A situation where an armed force has openly called for resistance to the Federal government is a bit more serious in my opinion. The government response has been noticeably muted. Again, this could be for good reason, but it's not good as far as optics are concerned. There are some choice tweets at this link ridiculing the initial media coverage as well as the militia themselves.

Baltimore and Ferguson are built up urban areas where riots were happening and it is extremely hard to control people's actions.
Eastern Oregon is high country desert without many people. Federal forces surround the building, nobody gets in or out and you starve them out and nobody gets hurt.
Why does the limousine Liberals want to turn this into a race thing?
 
Kilo_302 said:
Are you of the opinion then that this is a legitimate insurgency? If it is illegitimate, would you agree that it is terrorism or an act of war?

I have no idea what constitutes a legitimate insurgency.  You would have to ask a Yank.

On the other hand maybe I do have an idea.  Any insurgency that results in killing politicians I don't like is legitimate.  Any insurgency that results in killing politicians I do like is illegitimate.
 
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