09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[Forgotten_Hero]

So which is it ? The army does or does not owe people anything ?

What I'm saying is that any good leader should look out for their troops... lead by example... etc. If the army wants the troops to commit to training, then I say the army should commit to giving the troops stable employment. Can you not agree with this? I dont see how you cant? I mean, the troops *are* going to look for a steady income when then need a steady income. The army cant blame the soldiers for not showing up anymore because they got another job simply because the reserves couldnt give them an equal commitment to what they put in.

Of course, the army can do whatever the frig it wants in the end, but that doesnt mean its right. No the army doesnt "owe" them anything, but it should at least give them an equal commitment to the commitment they ask from the troops. What would you propose? Would you rather the army, since it doesnt "owe" them anything, used up, chewed up, and spit out soldiers whenever they want? By that same mentality, we shouldnt give people medical benifits when they get injured at work, since the army doesnt "owe" them anything. Hell, they should just stop paying them too.

 

[CountDC]

Do you have any idea what cancelling BMQs midway will have on those units?  For some it will take years to recover from.  We'll be losing some good people as well.

However, with the 320 million more in cuts on the way, I think that Army Reservists will see just how much the CF as a whole is going to end up sharing the brunt of these "readjustments".

Tell us about it - the clerk world is still suffering the loses from merging the trades and cutting positions.  Some good people will go but most of them will tough it out.  The real shame in all this is that as some of us have said - it has happened in the past, is happening now and will most likely happen again.  That is why I always tell people I talk to about joining the reserves - it is a great part time job.  DO not count on it for a full time career though.

The rest of the CF is already sharing in on these readjustments.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The CF needs to take a closer look at making an employment commitment to the Class "A"s which can't be broken below, say, the deputy minister/CDS level.  If the recruiting pitch in part emphasizes Class "A" as a form of part-time job and aims predominantly at people in late high school or post-secondary education, then people are in fact going to show up "for the money".  Don't lead people on and then change tunes.

Class "B"s need to think realistically of themselves as contractors: every job should be viewed as not more than a six-month stint even if it doesn't have a targeted end date, with the possibility of being cut loose at any time if it suits "the business".  Plenty of people go through life as contractors, but the first step is to shift expectations away from long-term gigs.

 

[meni0n]

I find it hypocritical of the army to to cut so many class b positions at the reserve units but there are a lot of class b messages coming out of Ottawa and NDHQ. Hell, yesterday there was a class b for a Major any trade  that was from the CLS office. They can't find a single Major sitting around NDHQ to fill that from the Regs?

 

[Occam]

I think you'll find that there are currently quite a few Cl B positions being advertised in the NCR....for Majors and Captains.

 

[COBRA-6]

The CF needs to take a closer look at making an employment commitment to the Class "A"s which can't be broken below, say, the deputy minister/CDS level.  If the recruiting pitch in part emphasizes Class "A" as a form of part-time job and aims predominantly at people in late high school or post-secondary education, then people are in fact going to show up "for the money".  Don't lead people on and then change tunes.

Class "B"s need to think realistically of themselves as contractors: every job should be viewed as not more than a six-month stint even if it doesn't have a targeted end date, with the possibility of being cut loose at any time if it suits "the business".  Plenty of people go through life as contractors, but the first step is to shift expectations away from long-term gigs.

I agree with your line of thinking, however I would suggest that in order to run your part-time army you require a certain amount of full-time or "active duty" reservists providing direct support (the B(A)'s). Yes this could be and has been done by RegF RSS staff, with varrying degrees of success. But as we're an Army that is structuring our RegF Battalion to rely on Reserve augmentation for operations, we don't have enough Regulars to fill out the full-time army as it is. (A RegF Inf Coy establishment will be 132 pers, brought up to 150 for operations by reserve augmentation)

These "B(A)" posns should be templated for uniformity between units, brigades and areas (allowing for size differences from unit to unit, bde to bde, ect), and the funds reserved at the national level, again requiring high level approval to ammend. What has gotten us into our current mess is allowing commanders at all levels to hire class b's out of their own budget without established posns for them. This is not a problem unique to the Army of course. 

Non-positional Class "B" contracts should be limited to short term tasks like training, courses, or staff call-outs, not long-term staff posns.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The CF needs to take a closer look at making an employment commitment to the Class "A"s which can't be broken below, say, the deputy minister/CDS level.  If the recruiting pitch in part emphasizes Class "A" as a form of part-time job and aims predominantly at people in late high school or post-secondary education, then people are in fact going to show up "for the money".  Don't lead people on and then change tunes.

The credibility of the reserves (which really translates to the CF because people don't know any better) took a big hit when coop students had to go back and tell their teachers and schools that surprise they weren't on coop anymore and needed to find new placements and new classes. 

Class "B"s need to think realistically of themselves as contractors: every job should be viewed as not more than a six-month stint even if it doesn't have a targeted end date, with the possibility of being cut loose at any time if it suits "the business".  Plenty of people go through life as contractors, but the first step is to shift expectations away from long-term gigs.

Problem is that there are two (unofficial) kinds of class B's. 
1. The random single shot kind of class B. Go down to Trenton and pick up parachutes for a month. Go play hostage for the jtf. Go be a GD out in a flying kitchen in wainwright for an ex.
2. The class Bs that were constant and renewed annually. Same jb same position 9 times out of 19 the same person filling it.

If you have someone who has applied for and been accepted the same class B position for 5 years can one really really blame them for being lured into a false sense of security?
It's understandable that these shouldn't have been pegged as secure long term gigs but that's how the CF treated them IMO.

I find it hypocritical of the army to to cut so many class b positions at the reserve units but there are a lot of class b messages coming out of Ottawa and NDHQ. Hell, yesterday there was a class b for a Major any trade  that was from the CLS office. They can't find a single Major sitting around NDHQ to fill that from the Regs?

One part of the decision to go after reserve class B's has been to stop reg force members from double dipping.
The CF wagered that if class B positions dried up there would be fewer  reg force members getting out of the regs and joining the reserves and hopping on long term class B positions - and they were right.
I'm hearing a lot of stories of guys who got out and went reserve world only to turn around and start making calls trying to get back in the regs.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I want to hear more about these renovations to the RMC Mess. What's up with that?

 

[COBRA-6]

I want to hear more about these renovations to the RMC Mess. What's up with that?

Ahh but RMC doesn't belong to the Army.

 

[PMedMoe]

I want to hear more about these renovations to the RMC Mess. What's up with that?

I believe that was discussed elsewhere on this fourm (at an earlier date) and someone came on and stated that this was money already bookmarked for a contract to fix deficiencies at the mess (mainly infrastructure repair as opposed to purely cosmetic renovations).  Apples and oranges.

 

[Journeyman]

From the posted Tender, seeking bids on the project

R29 Senior Staff Mess Bar Renovation, RMC – CFB Kingston, Ontario
Contract Award

DEFENCE CONSTRUCTION CANADA (DCC) – KN099940 – R29 Senior Staff Mess Bar Renovation, RMC – CFB Kingston, Ontario

The work includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the supply of labour, material, and equipment necessary to complete the renovations to the Bar in R29 – Senior Staff Mess, 9 Point Fredrick Drive at RMC, CFB Kingston. The work includes selective demolitions, construction of new supporting walls, stairs and bar complete with walk-in cooler and associated piping, electrical, mechanical, ductwork and architectural finishes. Minor exterior improvements, sidewalks and landscaping, may also be required.

The estimated cost for this opportunity is in the order of $415,000.00.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ahh but RMC doesn't belong to the Army.

Who does it belong to then? I hear "Senior Staff Mess" I envision NPF and CF\DND.

I believe that was discussed elsewhere on this fourm (at an earlier date) and someone came on and stated that this was money already bookmarked for a contract to fix deficiencies at the mess (mainly infrastructure repair as opposed to purely cosmetic renovations).  Apples and oranges.

The tender sure sounds like renovations and cosmetics to me. I was responsible for overseeing the 'deficiency repair' (renovation) of the Totem Lounge in Comox, in the 80's, and the tender doesn't sound that much different. Macintosh and Granny Smith.

 

[COBRA-6]

Who does it belong to then? I hear "Senior Staff Mess" I envision NPF and CF\DND.

It is part of CDA (Canadian Defence Academy), which falls under CMP (Military Personnel Command).

 

[vonGarvin]

$415,000 for repairs ain't gonna fix nuthin' in the mo-litia.

There, I said it.  With tens and potentially hundreds of millions short, scoping in on the equivalent of roughly 4 (four) x Reg Force Majors' worth of salary is missing the point entirely.

 

[bigcletus]

How about go one step further:  give an annual "retainer" for Class A troops, say $1000/year, you could call it a PIA stipend.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It is part of CDA (Canadian Defence Academy), which falls under CMP (Military Personnel Command).

So, in fact, they are part of the CF http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/acm-scp/index-eng.asp

$415,000 for repairs ain't gonna fix nuthin' in the mo-litia.

There, I said it.  With tens and potentially hundreds of millions short, scoping in on the equivalent of roughly 4 (four) x Reg Force Majors' worth of salary is missing the point entirely.

Cool your jets there TV. I've got a right to ask. I offered no opinion that the price tag would solve our problems. However, the optics outweigh the pricetag. Besides, budgets are balanced by looking at all the contingencies, not just big ticket program savings. I can move on, now that my curiosity is satisfied. Can you?

 

[kratz]

How about go one step further:  give an annual "retainer" for Class A troops, say $1000/year, you could call it a PIA stipend.

That may be a hard PILL to swallow for some parts of the CF.  ;D

Ok, that was a really bad pun.

 

[COBRA-6]

So, in fact, they are part of the CF http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/acm-scp/index-eng.asp

Absolutely part of the CF, but not part of the Army.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Absolutely part of the CF, but not part of the Army.

......and the whole of the CF is under the scope for cuts, not just the Army.

Anyway, it's a non-issue.

 

[vonGarvin]

I can move on, now that my curiosity is satisfied. Can you?

Sure can