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09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

I haven't been on here in a couple of years...however after today I had to check in and see the buzz on the loss of the Cas B's.  I've been on a casual Class B for the last year and a half, @ 1 year contracts.  Today I was told that come 1 Apr, I no longer have a job.  That's fine...however we'll have to see if all the Casual B's are given the boot too. I was also asked if I wanted to change to a Class A at that time...said no, I'll go on the SRR thanks.  I've thru this before.  They had me on weekly  3-4 day Class A days...just so they didn't have to pay me for the weekends.  I decided to "quit' and took a 1 year hiatus.  I received a call within 3 weeks with an offer lol. The job I was doing required specialize training..and I am the only one with those skills in the unit.  I'm medically/physically fit (just did the BFT 3 weeks ago). I have over 30 years of both Reg and Res service. With the CF crying for bodies...I just don't get it.  I do suspect we are down the same old road:  short-term fix that will haunt the Army for many years.  (there, I feel better!!, thanks).

Cheers
 
bigcletus said:
short-term fix that will haunt the Army for many years. 
Arguably, the unrestrained use of Class B to grow Regular Force units & staff has been the short-term fix that is haunting us today.

 
This will haunt us for the forseeable future.  We have the baby boomers who are at the end of 25 now or close to it.  They take a large chunk of the Snr NCO's posn and Officers of senior rank.  They are going to get out, look for other employment. realize that Class B is what they want to do and work with-in any constraints to get that.  Trouble is I have seen too many shiny examples of folks who fall into this profile who for all intents and purposes are retired in thier mind and do not do close to the work they are required to do. 

Personally Double dipping I dont mind and if applied right goes some distance in alieviating manpower issues.  I feel for those starting out a career and relying on class B ( know a few of them as well,) I never fully understood why they didnt go and CT but hey it is thier life. 

 
hamiltongs said:
I'm joking about that, but I wonder to what extent making it be known to your Reg F career manager that you're trying to have kids is a quick ticket to a two-year stint with the reserves.

Now you tell me.......
 
helpup said:
This will haunt us for the forseeable future.  We have the baby boomers who are at the end of 25 now or close to it.  They take a large chunk of the Snr NCO's posn and Officers of senior rank.  They are going to get out, look for other employment. realize that Class B is what they want to do and work with-in any constraints to get that.  Trouble is I have seen too many shiny examples of folks who fall into this profile who for all intents and purposes are retired in thier mind and do not do close to the work they are required to do. 
Unfortunately too often true.  Seen that happen myself - don't care too much as it is only a hobby or extra cash to them.

helpup said:
Personally Double dipping I dont mind and if applied right goes some distance in alieviating manpower issues.  I feel for those starting out a career and relying on class B ( know a few of them as well,) I never fully understood why they didnt go and CT but hey it is thier life.

Some people get stuck in the cl b rut because they are comfortable there. They have a job they know in an area they know and with people they know.  Doing a CT would take them out of that comfort zone, put them in a new job, maybe new city with people they never met before. Cutting out some class b positions may be the nudge some need to swallow their fears and make the jump to the dark side.

There are  those that are there because they want to be full time military but their spouse is already in the regular force and they do not want to risk the hassle of being a married service couple.  If the spouse gets posted they can simply quit the class b, move with them and apply for class b at the new location. If both were regular force they could find themselves seperated by posting to different locations. Perhaps going the civilian route would be a good alternative for them.
 
The reservist I am refering to are enjoying the class B out of school, the only person in thier family in the army and just happy going from contract to contract.  They tend to no longer parade with thier unit anymore and take up a posn ( needed or not) with that unit as well.  I always found it funny for the younger guys.  The other halfs I can understand and before anyone says it.  They do need to put food on thier plate.  But why make a career out of class B is and will, I suspect, beyong my understanding
 
helpup said:
The reservist I am refering to are enjoying the class B out of school, the only person in thier family in the army and just happy going from contract to contract.  They tend to no longer parade with thier unit anymore and take up a posn ( needed or not) with that unit as well.  I always found it funny for the younger guys.  The other halfs I can understand and before anyone says it.  They do need to put food on thier plate.  But why make a career out of class B is and will, I suspect, beyong my understanding

Those are the ones I don't understand either other than perhaps they enjoy the freedom to decide the jobs they take and don't want to fully commit to the military having full control.  As for parading with the unit - while on cl b you technically require your employing CO permission to parade with the unit.  They also need to keep the posn at the unit in order to be fully competitive for employment - P Res are priority over Sup Res. I see this as a place where unit CO's need to be given more control.  At the moment the CO can not keep a member from applying for and taking a Cl B.  The only thing he can do is not recommend the member for the job but unless he can point out a real fault they will get hired anyway. I think CO's should have the power to insist a member that has not paraded with the unit in 3 years either transfer to the sup res or return to training with the unit for 3 years before being eligible for Cl B (outside courses, summer training or Unit posns).  Another option would be to have mandatory breaks between Cl Bs - something like 6 months at the unit Cl A between each Cl B period.

Basically they need some way for the Unit CO's to protect the unit posns and ensure they are utilized to the benefit of the unit.
 
True enough and my optics were also colored by RSS-ing for a Ottawa based unit that had the puzzle palace next door.  Also there is a fair amount of that going on in Pet.

I just got a note from a long time friend who got out to do the class B route and is now doing the house husband bit.  Good thing his wife has a good job. 
 
CountDC said:
Those are the ones I don't understand either other than perhaps they enjoy the freedom to decide the jobs they take and don't want to fully commit to the military having full control.
Exactly. They trade the 15% pay cut for the privilege of being their own career managers.
CountDC said:
As for parading with the unit - while on cl b you technically require your employing CO permission to parade with the unit.  They also need to keep the posn at the unit in order to be fully competitive for employment - P Res are priority over Sup Res.
Not sure where this is coming from. Are you confusing the Sup Res with the Primary Reserve List? When a member is on Cl B for more than a year the unit can transfer them to the PRL, freeing up a position in the unit (admittedly, I don't know if this is a CF-wide policy). PRes members don't become part of the Sup Res by taking a Cl B position. Having a Cl B member parade with their reserve unit costs the unit nothing, why wouldn't the CO approve?
CountDC said:
I think CO's should have the power to insist a member that has not paraded with the unit in 3 years either transfer to the sup res or return to training with the unit for 3 years before being eligible for Cl B (outside courses, summer training or Unit posns).  Another option would be to have mandatory breaks between Cl Bs - something like 6 months at the unit Cl A between each Cl B period.

Basically they need some way for the Unit CO's to protect the unit posns and ensure they are utilized to the benefit of the unit.
This is baffling. You're saying the member on Cl B should be required to interrupt their full-time job every 3 years to work part time? Or go to the Sup Res? And do what?
 
Rheostatic said:
Not sure where this is coming from. Are you confusing the Sup Res with the Primary Reserve List? When a member is on Cl B for more than a year the unit can transfer them to the PRL, freeing up a position in the unit (admittedly, I don't know if this is a CF-wide policy).

No - it used to be that members would leave the reg f, transfer to the sup res and then pick and choice the Cl B they wanted using the old boy network.  Now it is supposed to be that P Res members are given priority. Not sure about the mandatory transfer to the PRL. It used to be that a member on Cl B had to be kept in the home unit position as they were expected to return there at the end of the period.

Rheostatic said:
PRes members don't become part of the Sup Res by taking a Cl B position.

Nor did I indicate that anywhere.

Rheostatic said:
Having a Cl B member parade with their reserve unit costs the unit nothing, why wouldn't the CO approve?

It is the employing CO that has to approve not the home unit CO. He may not approve as he does not want someone working for him doing both jobs.  When I first did a Cl B at LFAA my home unit wanted me to continue with them on evenings and the request was rejected. As far as the RSM at LFAA was concerned I was paid and employed with them 24/7 and no one else was going to abuse me.

Rheostatic said:
This is baffling. You're saying the member on Cl B should be required to interrupt their full-time job every 3 years to work part time? Or go to the Sup Res? And do what?

I am saying the members should not be able to turn Cl B into a full time job as they were never meant to be. Cl B is intended to fill a short term need.  If the job requires a full time perm person then they should either create a CL B/A, C or Reg F posn and staff it. On top of that the people we were talking about are those jumping from Cl B to Cl B so obviously their "full time" job has been interrupted all ready.

Again - never mentioned going to the Sup Res.  I mentioned return to training at the Unit which is what unit positions are for.
 
Haggis said:
I disagree.  The rate of CTs in "your regiment"  ;D is no higher now than before the cuts (in fact, many of the CT requests were submitted prior to the cuts being announced or even considered).  It happens after every tour and is not limited only to soldiers with operational experience.
I'll steal a great quote- A monkey doesn't let go of the branch it's holding onto until it grabs another one :)

If I was a betting man and had an inside track I would wager that some of those soldiers are waiting until they have all ducks in a row before officially submitting their paperwork.

This week I've had at least 8 soldiers approach me about class B. I said the same thing to all of them.
Get a full time civilian job or go regular force if you enjoy the military, the days of class B jobs seem to be over.
 
Just because there is a Class B hiring freeze doesn't mean that there aren't Class B jobs open/unfilled.  I just spoke with a close friend this morning about Cl B positions, and she (currently Cl B/A) said that they can't find enough people to fill the vacant Cl B positions out there now.  Now, these are established positions in the ARE, so in effect Cl B Annotated A positions, but still, there isn't enough people applying for jobs, and those positions remain vacant. 

Now thats only in LFAA and certain units/subunits, I can't comment on the other Areas. 
 
I'm still seeing on the order of 5-10 Class B Employment Opportunity messages every day...if there's a hiring freeze, not everyone knows about it or is affected by it.
 
I will say this. Our unit could not function without the help of class b reservist. There is still a man power shortage of positions and they are not likely to be fullfilled within the foreseeable future by Reg F positions due to Op tempo and manning in priority units. Now keep in mind, our unit reservist work hard and some put in serious field time.


Thats my 2 cents.
 
So, here is a crazy idea to some of the underlying problems (as I see them) of unrestrained Class B bloat.  As I see it we need a system that:
  • prevents just anyone with a budget from using money for empire building
  • ensures full time personnel growth has oversight & control at the appropriate levels
  • allows full time pers to be centrally managed so that low priority positions are not filling-up and leaving high priority work unfilled
  • ensures uniformity of training standards in full time pers
  • provides an option for those pers who still want to serve, but cannot keep doing the postings
  • provides a financial incentive for pers to continue serving when they reach the point where they are ready to get out
  • does not provide a financial incentive that encourages pers, who would have kept serving, to reduce their utility to the CF

To do this, I propose that Class B employment > 100 days be prohibited outside of Primary Reserve Units & formations.

Instead, we create a "limited obligation" regular force TOS that are renewable on a three year cycle.  The "limited obligation" means the regular force soldier never gets a posting out of the geographic region and is paid at the reserve rate.

A "limited obligation" regular force soldier would be managed by the same career manager as any other regular force member of the same occupation.  Come APS, the "limited obligation" soldier would never receive a cost move to another location but there would be no restrictions against no-cost moves.  The "limited obligation" soldier could be moved to fill a higher priority job, for career development reasons, or to avoid stagnant thinking within a staff organization.  Promotions could still occur for "limited obligation" soldiers, but they would be penalized by point reduction at the boards to reflect the reduced utility of not being geographically postable.

Double-dipping would no longer be possible as this is simply an incentive to reduce one's utility to the CF by becoming unpostable.  However, to provide an incentive for pers considering retirement to not leave entirely, pensionable "limited obligation" soldiers could stop paying into the pension (thus freezing the benefit at its current level) and recieve a pay top-up (so they make the same pay as though they were not "limited obligation").

Unrestrained growth would be put to a stop because the "limited obligation" still fills a regular force establishment position, and so any growth would have to go through the same checks & approvals as are required for getting new regular force PYs now.

There are a lot more finer hand details that would need to go into this concept.  Occupations at or above PML would not be allowed to issue/renew "limited obligation" TOS (so those pers who choose to be of lower utility would be let go to make room for postable pers).  At the same time, there should be an occupation manning level threshold above which pers may only convert to "limited obligation" TOS on expiry of a "full obligation" regular force TOS, but below this manning level threshold it would be acceptable for direct reserve component transfer into a "limited obligation" TOS.

If we were to go down this crazy path, implementation should involve identifying every Class B possition outside of reserve units/brigades that has existed for three or more years.  All of those possitions would be converted to regular force and the incumbents would be invited to accept a component transfer and "limited obligation" TOS.
 
Cutting the double dip will doom this interesting and useful plan right away.  As long as we have many senior folks (3+ bars) riding the gravy train, no one wants it to stop.  I recall the full Col Reg F who appointed himself to a Res F LCol position (at full pay as a Col) and did not understand why anyone squawked; I recall the Maj who switched to the Res F from the bottom of the merit list pointing out that between his annuity and Res pay he was making more than any BGen.

The Army is addicted to the cheap and easy fix that class B employment provides - look no further than LFDTS who refuse to come up with a plan for the future that doesn't include the massive class B augmentation "needed because troops are deployed and can't be tasked for augmentation".  How about running courses in unit lines instead - move the training to the troops, instead of the other way around?  How about doing better scheduling?  How about cutting the bloat from the HQs of LFDTS and CTC?  (And the Land Staff, which is remarkably large and slow).

Thought for the day: About 1 in 8 Regular Force members in the TES are in the NCR.  That's a massive overhead for any organization; cutting 10% of the Reg F PYS from NDHQ would free up over 600 PYs to do real tasks...

 
Try 31 CBGHQ D&S Platoon:

1 X LCol
2X Captains
2X CWO
1X WO

0 X Lt
0X Sgt
0X Mcpl
0X Pte/Cpl

While 31 CBGHQ has shed lots of OR's, they can still maintain a bloated establishment for an unmanned element (not to mention a half platoon of LCol "ACOS" positions).....just don't go looking for clerks to help with admin or paperwork.
 
dapaterson said:
Cutting the double dip will doom this interesting and useful plan right away.  As long as we have many senior folks (3+ bars) riding the gravy train, no one wants it to stop.  I recall the full Col Reg F who appointed himself to a Res F LCol position (at full pay as a Col) and did not understand why anyone squawked; I recall the Maj who switched to the Res F from the bottom of the merit list pointing out that between his annuity and Res pay he was making more than any BGen.
This exactly illustrates one reason why we need a new system.  A few at the top are living fat & happy (in positions they may very well have created for themselves) as overpaid and less-useful bloat.  At the same time civilian term employees are being let go & reservists at the bottom are seeing TOS canceled to save a few dollars.

 
dapaterson said:
Cutting the double dip will doom this interesting and useful plan right away.  As long as we have many senior folks (3+ bars) riding the gravy train, no one wants it to stop.  I recall the full Col Reg F who appointed himself to a Res F LCol position (at full pay as a Col) and did not understand why anyone squawked; I recall the Maj who switched to the Res F from the bottom of the merit list pointing out that between his annuity and Res pay he was making more than any BGen.

Lol - I think lots of us know similar cases.  My fav was the CWO that had his posn changed to res just as he started retirement leave and slid right into the posn so he was paid reg f and res f pay.  See if I can remember how it worked.  Early 90's, approx 1.5 years "accumulated", retirement, liar leave.  Reg F pay and Res F pay.......volem maybe??  Can't remember now how it worked.  Once his leave ended he started to draw pension and get Res F pay too.  Maximum pension with 33 years in.  Really wish I could remember how it worked.
 
Hey guys, just wanted to make an area where we can discuss the current fund shortage for reserves.

I heard there's one unit down in London who are down to one training night a month and apparently some are on complete stand down until the new Fiscal year (April 1st, not to be confused with new Calender year).

I only started hearing about this tonight because my BMQ course (this was going to be weekend 6, ie. half way mark) has been put on stand down.  We all have training with our units, but no more BMQ until either some money is found (very unlikely) or the new fiscal year arrives (4 months from now) and chances are if we can't re-start until April they are going to make us restart BMQ from week 1.  I heard this is unprecedented and that a course has never been canceled like this before. 

Anyone else in the same boat as me (in my BMQ course or not)?

I'm hoping for the best (they'll take off where we left) but expecting the worst (re-starting at day 1).

I love how our Sergeant explained it to us: "Okay troops, basically, this is what happened" *draws a dollar sign on the board* "and now" *crosses out dollar sign* "any questions?"  too funny

Every one here is pretty bummed about it.  People who've been kicked off BMQ have priority in new courses popping up over new recruits who've been waiting for BMQ and it's messing up entire training schedules, like university students were supposed to get on the early SQ course in the summer and then do QL3 later in the summer, but now, if we don't graduate until mid summer maybe even later, we may be lucky to make it in time to a late summer SQ.  Some rumours that we may not even graduate this summer but take it back up in our equivelent timed course next year (October)

Unhappy faces all around, especially recruiting officers who can't even promise prospective recruits actual course dates.  Our unit is at roughly 50% size and the recruiting officer had finally been given the green light to recruit to make out unit 100% size (about another 100 members) and now he can't even work on that problem since he almost has to go "Yeah, training will start some time next year".  Sergeant is unhappy because there are about 30 of us Private Recruits who can't really do anything around the unit other than shovel snow (which is what we did tonight) until we're BMQ qualified and the likes.

Basically things aren't pretty over here.
 
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