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‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog

Your posting history is mainly how we idiots have no knowledge how policing or security matters are conducted, so listen to our betters.

I object to your categorizing that the thread descended into stupidity because it didn't follow your narrative.
Your words, not mine. You’ve now deliberately mischaracterized my posts (and now my entire posting history) several times in quick succession.

What I’ve yet to see you do is actually engage the subject of the thread. That’s unfortunate, because you DO have a ton of experience and likely some knowledge and insight I and others would find interesting and valuable, even if we might not have the same opinion or reach the same conclusions. If you were to choose to actually draw on your extensive knowledge and experience and contribute, that would probably add value.
 
Your words, not mine. You’ve now deliberately mischaracterized my posts (and now my entire posting history) several times in quick succession.

What I’ve yet to see you do is actually engage the subject of the thread. That’s unfortunate, because you DO have a ton of experience and likely some knowledge and insight I and others would find interesting and valuable, even if we might not have the same opinion or reach the same conclusions. If you were to choose to actually draw on your extensive knowledge and experience and contribute, that would probably add value.
Ummmmmmmm. Distraction from your posts where you called "stupid" twice.
 
Ummmmmmmm. Distraction from your posts where you called "stupid" twice.
If any actual individual feels I have called them ‘stupid’, or anything like it, I invite them to address it with me either publicly or privately, whatever they’re comfortable with. If that’s you, then simply say so and we’ll hash it out and square it like the adults we both are. If that’s not you and you’re just taking vicarious offense for something someone else may or may not feel, fine, but IMO it’s adding nothing to the thread.

I’ve said my bit - a couple of times now - on the actual subject of the thread and the report it refers to. I’ll check back in if anyone actually wants to take up any of the real substance of the subject. Yourself included.
 
If any actual individual feels I have called them ‘stupid’, or anything like it, I invite them to address it with me either publicly or privately, whatever they’re comfortable with. If that’s you, then simply say so and we’ll hash it out and square it like the adults we both are. If that’s not you and you’re just taking vicarious offense for something someone else may or may not feel, fine, but IMO it’s adding nothing to the thread.

I’ve said my bit - a couple of times now - on the actual subject of the thread and the report it refers to. I’ll check back in if anyone actually wants to take up any of the real substance of the subject. Yourself included.
Vicarious offense??????? You called posters comments "stupid" twice. You do not get to to choose what posters opinions are. What arrogance.
 
Back on track - these people are a threat. They use the knowledge they gain against Canada, and when they are caught guess who the bad guys are?

The CAF - you saw that about two or more years ago with that imbecile in Winnipeg.
Sure, but how many people are we talking about? So far two made the news; both have been released.

I would agree that white nationalist are a threat (as are many other extremists), my personal object was the suggestion the CAF get 'proactive' to root out members that may have gotten through the screening or developed WN leanings later in life. But the reportings of intentional WN actively joining the CAF to gain those skills seems to be really limited, and would be separate from random people doing racist things (without some kind of overarching agenda).

Members who become aware that their wingers have WN views (social media postings etc) and report them to the CoC is reactive. Taking action if someone does something racist is reactive. Similarly if some RCMP folks find a CAF member is participating in WN and passes that onto the CAF that is also reactive (on the CAF's part).

I don't see 'being proactive' as anything short of actively surveilling CAF members. Doesn't really matter what we do, we make easy targets and good villains. Doesn't mean I want to have some random secret squirrel trolling through my personal life 'just in case'.

Is it a potential threat? Sure. but there has been no evidence that it's nothing but a very limited number of people (single digits?), which really is insignificant, and a distraction from the very real national security threat that large parts of the CAF is in a material and personnel death spiral which is having a very real impact on actual operational capability. Nothing publically available suggest that this is a threat that requires us to change our actual approach of applying existing policies and punting people if they actually do something.
 
:rolleyes: You’re being deliberately obtuse. You’re a communications professional, you’re well aware of what I did and did not say.

My line of work is following evidence and facts, reasoning them towards defensible conclusions if there are conclusions to be drawn, and where warranted, providing that information for other parties to act on through processes prescribed in law. Yours, and I’m not saying this at all perjoratively, has generally been to present information and narratives in a way that favours CAF as an institution and that furthers military objectives. There’s nothing wrong with that. We’re both playing for the same side, but with different approaches to the respective value of public perception and narratives versus objective data and intelligence.

In any case- Canada and the west have a verifiable problem with white nationalism as a subset of ideologically motivated violent extremism. That has resulted in both criminal prosecutions (and convictions) as well as threat disruptions, both at home and abroad. These are objective facts. It is also objective fact that there is a conscious effort by such groups to recruit current or former military, or to get people into the military to attain skill sets that may be of use if they can successfully stoke accelerationist violence. Again, these are real events that are playing out continuously, mostly out of public eye, but with occasional visibility in courts or through public interest investigation by journalists and certain activists. While much of the latter is crap, some of it is useful.

CAF, like other allied militaries, is a target for these individuals and groups. You nor I have a proper sense on the extent to which that is the case. There’s more than enough out there to know it’s true, but the true magnitude is likely unknown, and the best informed estimates will be classified. Some decent UNCLASS products come out through ITAC, or other FOUO means, and we both likely have seen those. We’ve likely both gotten some other deeper peaks, but likely at the level of individual instances, not the full, broad scale.

We have a government arms-length body, NSIRA, with access to pretty much everything on the security intelligence side. NSIRA has assessed this trend, and said that CAF is not keeping up with the problem. It seems that CAF is live to this. This is a reasonable concern for them to identify, and it’s their job to flag such issues.

None of this is information that you, I, or anyone else in this thread needs special insight to understand. This is very foundational information for anyone who takes an interest in national security. I’m simply disappointed to see people jumping off half cocked without even attempting that basic understanding. I think some people are being defensive, thinking this is some sort of woke political BS or something when it’s really just sound national security work.
The CAF hasn't kept up anything since we left Afghanistan. Our CAFNIS isn't special. Every CAF org ends up in silos of entrenched ideas.

NSIRA is an arms length government body. That doesn't mean much when your own force is supposed to be an arms length government body and we all know how much truth there is to that. The RCMP have made arms length a joke. The command structure made a mockery of that and that casts doubt on all government organizations.

And finally, your complaint that nobody is discussing the subject the way you want. There are numerous threads where you yourself have left the subject and gone off on tangents. We all do it. Know your audience.
 
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My concern is the term WN will just be used as a tool to smear and threaten any person opposed to progressive left policies, like how the terms misogynist and racist are used now or when a person comments on the “whiteness” of a group of people in an effort to delegitimization their position.

In any case, here is a list of things that may be of more concern:





 
My concern is the term WN will just be used as a tool to smear and threaten any person opposed to progressive left policies, like how the terms misogynist and racist are used now or when a person comments on the “whiteness” of a group of people in an effort to delegitimization their position.

In any case, here is a list of things that may be of more concern:






:rolleyes: You’re being deliberately obtuse. You’re a communications professional, you’re well aware of what I did and did not say.

My line of work is following evidence and facts, reasoning them towards defensible conclusions if there are conclusions to be drawn, and where warranted, providing that information for other parties to act on through processes prescribed in law. Yours, and I’m not saying this at all perjoratively, has generally been to present information and narratives in a way that favours CAF as an institution and that furthers military objectives. There’s nothing wrong with that. We’re both playing for the same side, but with different approaches to the respective value of public perception and narratives versus objective data and intelligence.

In any case- Canada and the west have a verifiable problem with white nationalism as a subset of ideologically motivated violent extremism. That has resulted in both criminal prosecutions (and convictions) as well as threat disruptions, both at home and abroad. These are objective facts. It is also objective fact that there is a conscious effort by such groups to recruit current or former military, or to get people into the military to attain skill sets that may be of use if they can successfully stoke accelerationist violence. Again, these are real events that are playing out continuously, mostly out of public eye, but with occasional visibility in courts or through public interest investigation by journalists and certain activists. While much of the latter is crap, some of it is useful.

CAF, like other allied militaries, is a target for these individuals and groups. You nor I have a proper sense on the extent to which that is the case. There’s more than enough out there to know it’s true, but the true magnitude is likely unknown, and the best informed estimates will be classified. Some decent UNCLASS products come out through ITAC, or other FOUO means, and we both likely have seen those. We’ve likely both gotten some other deeper peaks, but likely at the level of individual instances, not the full, broad scale.

We have a government arms-length body, NSIRA, with access to pretty much everything on the security intelligence side. NSIRA has assessed this trend, and said that CAF is not keeping up with the problem. It seems that CAF is live to this. This is a reasonable concern for them to identify, and it’s their job to flag such issues.

None of this is information that you, I, or anyone else in this thread needs special insight to understand. This is very foundational information for anyone who takes an interest in national security. I’m simply disappointed to see people jumping off half cocked without even attempting that basic understanding. I think some people are being defensive, thinking this is some sort of woke political BS or something when it’s really just sound national security work.
So who is being really "obtuse" here.
 
Points to consider:

1. There will always be bad actors looking to take advantage;
2. We will seldom be ready when they reveal themselves; and
3. Our best response is to ensure that we have robust measures to deal with them.

We can do little regarding points 1 and 2, and on point 3 I think we've made substantial progress. I disagree with the article that we are unprepared to deal with the problem. I do not disagree that a problem exists, but short of thought police, there's little we can do until these folks out themselves.

The sky is not falling.
 
Back to the topic at hand 😉

I'm going to call BS on this latest round of "White Supremacy is a major problem in the CAF".

The Military Police Criminal Intelligence Section has done studies on this and they actually made a study public after the Proud Boys incident in Halifax a few years ago.

What did they find?

The report by the Military Police Criminal Intelligence Section said 16 members of the armed forces and reserves had been associated with hate groups.

They were active in the Proud Boys, Atomwaffen Division, La Meute, Hammerskins Nation, III% and Soldiers of Odin, said the report obtained by Global News.

Here are some actual figures and trends:

graph2.png

graph.png

The study said 16 members of the armed forces had been linked to hate groups, and another 37 were alleged to have engaged in racist or hate-motivated conduct between 2013 and 2018, that represented only 0.1 per cent of the military population.

The report concluded:

“At this time, given the extremely small number of CAF members identified as belonging to hate groups and/or being involved in possible hate-motivated incidents, hate groups do not pose any significant threat to the CAF/DND,”

Talk about making mountains out of mole hills! I bet you I could find more "white supremacy" if I walked down to the local pub. I think the NSIRA report is sensationalized and politically motivated garbage.

Also, the respective Police Forces of this Country, and especially the RCMP, whose red serge may as well be brown at this point because of how 💩 💩 💩 stained the organization is, might want to look in the mirror before they call out the Military on these issues.

I'll remember what a serious organization they are next time one of their elite operators decides to go for a drunken joyride to burger king in a police cruiser and assault some lesser officers from the municipals 🤣.
 
Are there racist idiots out there? Yes there is.
Are there some in the CAF? Yes there is.
Are they a threat to the nation of Canada? Not at all.

The chattering classes in the Ottawa-Toronto-Montreal triangle would love to import every issue from the US and make it our own. For all of our similarities with our southern cousins we are still two very different nations. As was shown by the convoy and the border blockades, they were somewhat organized but when push came to shove and the authorities finally got their shit together the convoy melted away like the snow in a chinook. Also when the threat of real armed issues came to the fore, the authorities were able to nip that in the bud pretty damn quick.

Yes there will always be lone wolf attacks, but an organized white nationalist militia attacking the foundations of Canada? Nope, its just not in our DNA.
Ummmm FLQ pops up.
 
Back to the topic at hand 😉

I'm going to call BS on this latest round of "White Supremacy is a major problem in the CAF".

The Military Police Criminal Intelligence Section has done studies on this and they actually made a study public after the Proud Boys incident in Halifax a few years ago.

What did they find?



Here are some actual figures and trends:

View attachment 74914

View attachment 74915



The report concluded:



Talk about making mountains out of mole hills! I bet you I could find more "white supremacy" if I walked down to the local pub. I think the NSIRA report is sensationalized and politically motivated garbage.

Also, the respective Police Forces of this Country, and especially the RCMP, whose red serge may as well be brown at this point because of how 💩 💩 💩 stained the organization is, might want to look in the mirror before they call out the Military on these issues.

I'll remember what a serious organization they are next time one of their elite operators decides to go for a drunken joyride to burger king in a police cruiser and assault some lesser officers from the municipals 🤣.

This should be the CAF response to that article.
 
This should be the CAF response to that article.
gerard butler film GIF
 
In the big scheme of things the FLQ were a very small (but dedicated) group. And if you called them White Nationalists today the Quebec Intelligencia would be extremely upset.
Pierre Vallières (22 February 1938 – 23 December 1998) was a Québécois journalist and writer, known as an intellectual leader of the Front de libération du Québec (FLQ) and author of Nègres blancs d'Amérique, translated as White Niggers of America.
 
All- this was a useless and unnecessary comment. I’d like to apologize for my part in the thread detail that ensued.

I’ll be back to this later and will keep my replies topical.
@brihard it's a credit to you as a person that you're able to walk back like this.

It shows a level of maturity that is severely lacking in so many today.

You're contributions to this thread and others are valuable. Don't be gone too long!
 
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