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‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog

Kat Stevens

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During the Yugo war, some said the expats (Croat/Serb/Bosnian - take yer pick) would often feel the hate-burn harder than those still in country. Wonder if that's the same in these cases?
There are no more rabid IRA/Republican supporters in the world than the third generation "Irish American" Catholics in Boston and New York. I might throw Montreal in there too for shiggles.
 

lenaitch

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During the Yugo war, some said the expats (Croat/Serb/Bosnian - take yer pick) would often feel the hate-burn harder than those still in country. Wonder if that's the same in these cases?
Not surprising. Sometimes, it seems homeland folks move on over time but ex-pats cling to old ways, grudges, etc.
 
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Halifax Tar

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There are no more rabid IRA/Republican supporters in the world than the third generation "Irish American" Catholics in Boston and New York. I might throw Montreal in there too for shiggles.

I seen the IRA donation jar at the Black Rose in Boston.
 

TacticalTea

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There are no more rabid IRA/Republican supporters in the world than the third generation "Irish American" Catholics in Boston and New York. I might throw Montreal in there too for shiggles.
If I recall correctly, in the context of Islamic terrorism, 2nd - rather than 1st - generation immigrants are also more prone to radicalization.

An interesting phenomenon, that is.
 

Kirkhill

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Woodrow Wilson introduces Self-Determination. The world has been stable ever since.

The right of a people to self-determination[1] is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[2][3] It states that peoples, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[4]

Lumads in Davao City marching for the right to self-determination as part of the human rights in Philippines in 2008.
The concept was first expressed in the 1860s, and spread rapidly thereafter.[5][6] During and after World War I, the principle was encouraged by both Soviet Premier Vladimir Lenin and United States President Woodrow Wilson.[5][6] Having announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918, on 11 February 1918 Wilson stated: "National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. 'Self determination' is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action."[7]

During World War II, the principle was included in the Atlantic Charter, declared on 14 August 1941, by Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States, and Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, who pledged The Eight Principal points of the Charter.[8] It was recognized as an international legal right after it was explicitly listed as a right in the UN Charter.[9]

The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, nor what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or full assimilation.[10] Neither does it state what the delimitation between peoples should be—nor what constitutes a people. There are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination.[11]

 

singh1947

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I guess the debate's whether White Nationalism is exceptional or an extension.
Also, is it qualitatively different to exclude them from the army vs the country at large?
Is violent exclusion separate from or an extension of the peaceable kind?

I saw a lot of n-bombs, harassment of non-white colleagues, and other behaviors which made one thing obvious:
This is a white man's army centered on white values in a white country. All these are natural; we're violently opposed to intermarriage.
--

How this conflicts with a minority raised in a large city on multiculturalism is a separate issue.
As a religious person, a lot of the differences blend away for me:

Both left & right use tobacco, eat beef, etc. (cut their hair, walk about unarmed etc.)
Both the left & right generally expect you to follow Canadian laws arising out of a European culture.

In other words, they want or have first place among equals in a system based on their values.
--

So to me it's like w/e. You're in their country, and you can't expect every person to be a diplomat laying out the welcome mat.
Now, I think this means I've given up on integrating with the majority, and a lot of others have as well.

That's a bigger issue for the government than some small # in hate groups, and I'm not sure whether they understand that or conflate the two.
--

Also, not sure where to put introductions (tried the search) so:

I'm a Sikh, former Officer in the CAF, and would like to engage respectfully to share a few ideas, and take on a few more.

Thanks,

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ
 

Good2Golf

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Thanks for your perspective, @singh1947

Question for you, re: this part of your post:
Now, I think this means I've given up on integrating with the majority, and a lot of others have as well.
My wife and I were discussing aspects of the US ‘melting pot’ vs Canadian ‘mosaic’ and how it would seem to follow that over time, Canadian society would seem to naturally diverge from its original European basis. We saw it as neither good nor bad, but a likely trend on pan-society perspectives in Canada. Is that a reasonable assessment on our part?

Regards
G2G
 

Kirkhill

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I guess the debate's whether White Nationalism is exceptional or an extension.
Also, is it qualitatively different to exclude them from the army vs the country at large?
Is violent exclusion separate from or an extension of the peaceable kind?

I saw a lot of n-bombs, harassment of non-white colleagues, and other behaviors which made one thing obvious:
This is a white man's army centered on white values in a white country. All these are natural; we're violently opposed to intermarriage.
--

How this conflicts with a minority raised in a large city on multiculturalism is a separate issue.
As a religious person, a lot of the differences blend away for me:

Both left & right use tobacco, eat beef, etc. (cut their hair, walk about unarmed etc.)
Both the left & right generally expect you to follow Canadian laws arising out of a European culture.

In other words, they want or have first place among equals in a system based on their values.
--

So to me it's like w/e. You're in their country, and you can't expect every person to be a diplomat laying out the welcome mat.
Now, I think this means I've given up on integrating with the majority, and a lot of others have as well.

That's a bigger issue for the government than some small # in hate groups, and I'm not sure whether they understand that or conflate the two.
--

Also, not sure where to put introductions (tried the search) so:

I'm a Sikh, former Officer in the CAF, and would like to engage respectfully to share a few ideas, and take on a few more.

Thanks,

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

Thanks for that @singh1947. I look forwards to hearing a lot more on your perspective. I'm particularly intrigued by the issue of when does toleration become intolerable. Some beliefs, religious or political, are so strongly held as to make accommodation very difficult. This is true regardless of the origins of the individual.

Also I would be interested to hear more about the origins of the Sikhs in lands between the Hindu and the Muslim. Like Anglo-Scottish borderers and Cossacks of the steppes they seem, to me, to have developed their own particular coping skills over the last few centuries.
 

singh1947

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@Good2Golf @Kirkhill

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Not sure about the mosaic vs melting pot because the Maryada (code) for a Sikh is the same no matter where you go.
I stopped thinking of myself as a member of 'Canadian' society because no one thought of me that way since I kept my hair (10 years ago).

I still perform the functions and duties of a good citizen, but that arises out of Sikhi rather than a respect for the law.

I do sort of miss the days or get angry about when I could feel part of the country or general current of society.
I had to go from being a person (Canadian) who just happens to be Sikh, to a Singh who just happens to be here.

That's sort of the extent of my thoughts on the matter.
Not here to single out any group since I've seen a variety in all colours.
 

Remius

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@Good2Golf @Kirkhill

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Not sure about the mosaic vs melting pot because the Maryada (code) for a Sikh is the same no matter where you go.
I stopped thinking of myself as a member of 'Canadian' society because no one thought of me that way since I kept my hair (10 years ago).

I still perform the functions and duties of a good citizen, but that arises out of Sikhi rather than a respect for the law.

I do sort of miss the days or get angry about when I could feel part of the country or general current of society.
I had to go from being a person (Canadian) who just happens to be Sikh, to a Singh who just happens to be here.

That's sort of the extent of my thoughts on the matter.
Not here to single out any group since I've seen a variety in all colours.
How would you compare that thought process now vs 10 years ago?

Are things getting better or worse? (Ie the situation for younger Sikhs say that are born in Canada versus ones that immigrate)
 

singh1947

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How would you compare that thought process now vs 10 years ago?

Are things getting better or worse? (Ie the situation for younger Sikhs say that are born in Canada versus ones that immigrate)
Before student immigration things were easier socially, but I can't comment on the workplace since I was a teenager.
Things are never linear, but I think that smartphones/social media definitely changed social relations away from a local identity.
I believe in Canada so I'm always gonna say it's getting better. Positive thinking is sort of part of Sikhi (Chardi Kala).
I think that negativity arises from an incomplete understanding and/or is a matter of perspective.
 
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Brad Sallows

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To answer the question of whether keeping extremists out of the CAF vs the country matters: yes.

First, the opportunity to do so is practical. Excluding people born here from being here is problematic, but both the applicant and the CAF have a choice about whether a person joins the CAF.

Second, there's an observable and annoying/worrisome/potentially destabilizing tendency for people today to assume they may use their position in an organization to advance their personal social and political goals. Recent examples: some employees of the FBI, many employees of Twitter, members of university faculty and staff. The long-standing customary ethical line between professional and personal has been dangerously eroded in a short time. Obviously, extremists cannot be permitted to use position in the CAF to advance extremist goals.
 

Kirkhill

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@Good2Golf @Kirkhill

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Not sure about the mosaic vs melting pot because the Maryada (code) for a Sikh is the same no matter where you go.
I stopped thinking of myself as a member of 'Canadian' society because no one thought of me that way since I kept my hair (10 years ago).

I still perform the functions and duties of a good citizen, but that arises out of Sikhi rather than a respect for the law.

I do sort of miss the days or get angry about when I could feel part of the country or general current of society.
I had to go from being a person (Canadian) who just happens to be Sikh, to a Singh who just happens to be here.

That's sort of the extent of my thoughts on the matter.
Not here to single out any group since I've seen a variety in all colours.

I'm not sure if that puts you significantly different to an observant Jew or Catholic or to any secular citizen of any country who finds their calling beyond national borders.

Or, to be difficult, to a monarchist in Canada. Some of us see the monarchy as Canadian. Others see the monarch as Canadian as the Pope.
 

Jarnhamar

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I'm a Sikh, former Officer in the CAF, and would like to engage respectfully to share a few ideas, and take on a few more.

Thanks,

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

Hi Singh,

I'm curious what group your avatar picture represents?

I also noticed on your profile there appears to be Vishnu (or Rama?) holding a severed bleeding head. Out of curiosity who is the victim there?
 

brihard

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Also, not sure where to put introductions (tried the search) so:

I'm a Sikh, former Officer in the CAF, and would like to engage respectfully to share a few ideas, and take on a few more.

Thanks,

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

Yes, I think we recall from when you were previously a member here... was it three years ago already?

 
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