Just to confirm, because it’s not always easy to tell, you’re joking right?
NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock
- Thread starter daftandbarmy
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This is why we don't talk in these threads. You're always looking for that chink. You always take generalizations, from me, personally. I fully expect you to try wind this up further, but I won't participate.
L8r bri
Quirky
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No. Where is the father in all this, why is his son homeless? No, it's always societies and government fault for not providing enough social services. "He was a good kid" is the same old tired tale. Sounds like the dad just gave up on his son and left an autistic kid with mental health issues to fend for himself. The breakdown of a family network strikes again.
“That chink”? No, it was blatant hypocrisy and I’m simply calling you on it.
Open invite: if I or anyone else brings up anything on the criminal justice/criminal investigations subject, and there’s something you take exception to on facts or reasoning, by all means raise any specific objections and I’m sure a civil and mature discussion will ensue. Those of us who frequent these threads are very capable of discussing and debating points of law or process, and sticking to a subject. But if you want to just rant, you’re either going to get ignored, or you’ll get the kind of reply a general rant attracts. If you want to enter these threads and blast us, nobody is obligated to humour you. If you want to consider this reply “trying to wind this up”, that’s on you.
A guy gets choked out on the subway by an identified suspect, and dies, and you blame the victim’s father for his death? That’s idiotic. Criminal culpability has yet to be determined, but you’re about as right out of ‘er as a person can be on this. Parental presence isn’t a magical fix for profound mental health issues. Nor is the lack of that presence an excuse for homicide committed by someone else.
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I don't think there is a lot of speculation needed, and I am not comparing a Them to Ours System, I'm simply commenting on the law of the land down here and NY State's Criminal Code, because our illustrious Republic each state makes their own for items outside of the Federal Law (and oddly Assault, Murder and other related physical crimes against the person at State matter, and only jump to Fed when its Civil Liberties (I would have postulated that Life was a civili liberty - but alas).
I posted the relevant NY Statutes already.
Facts:
1) Individual assaulted an EDP to "restrain"
2) Individual use a chokehold as their method of restraint.
3) Individual continued the chokehold which resulted in the death of the EDP (Jordan Neely)
Mitigating circumstances may come out - but there is zero doubt a Homicide was committed. The Individual will need to have some sort of affirmative defense in order to be found not guilty, which would be self-defense/defense of others in this case. But in that, he would need to show that not using lethal force that he or others would have been at risk to death or gross bodily harm.
I have zero intent at looking at this from a Political Lens - I am a Law and Order guy above all, and while I have no love of Soro's etc it doesn't change the facts of the case, though it may change the results.
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Maybe at work? The mother was mentioned as a murder victim so I am guessing they aren't exceptionally well off financially.
You can't blame the breakdown of the Family network on everything.
There is a major lack of (very needed) Government Funding for MH in this country, and in most states.
Nicely said, and same. There’s zero political interest or context for me in this one. Simply a “WTF was he doing?” case of someone choking out and killing someone on a subway. As a cop, as someone who’s investigated violent crimes, and as someone who’s instructed use of force, this hits a number of interest points for me. Plus the whole breathless “he was a marine and trained to kill!”angle some are seizing on.
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No arguement Kev. Just tossing out thoughts. Just using a different lens. I never sought to give any professional scenarios, or hold myself up as any kind of expert, as some others are want to do. I don't know NY law like you. I'm playing the man on the street and some of the things they might be thinking. I'm pretty easy to convince if other factors come into it. Your input is always appreciated.
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Is bill C-11 here in the room with us now?
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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No it's next door, but it's looking at me with glee.
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I don't know, that's why I wondered. However, I'm sure you have another lengthy, rambling lecture to give. Feel free.
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I am sure there are some pieces we are missing - I noted above that there was a second individual involved in the restraining, which makes one suspect that at least 2 people thought there was a reason to restrain him.
*I know fairly little about NY Law, other than not to spend time in NY
However most of the their laws are fairly similar to other common law area in terms of offenses against the person.
The different Felony Classes are where states get very different.
For NY (rough guide)
| Offense | Sentence |
|---|---|
| 'A' Violent Felony | Life, 20-25 years |
| 'B' Violent Felony | 5-25 years |
| 'B' Non Violent Felony | 1-3, Max 25 years |
| 'C' Violent Felony | 3 1/2 to 15 years |
| 'C' Non Violent Felony | No Jail, Probation, 1-2 years to 15 years |
| 'D' Violent Felony | 2-7 years |
| 'D' Non Violent Felony | No Jail, Probation, 1-3 to 7 years |
| 'E' Violent Felony | No Jail, Probation, 1 1/2 to 4 years |
| 'E' Non Violent Felony | No Jail, Probation, 1 1/3 to 4 years |
Back to the incident.
My main issues was the method of restraint, and the apparent duration.
I know from personal experience than some forms of control can't be used on EDP's, and others are just really bad ideas (like a Chokehold).
There is enough data out on EDP interaction that a reasonable person should know their actions to certain stimuli will not be the same as an ordinary person.
Which draws me back to what was the reason for the interaction in the first place.
The Individual(s) involved in the restraint are going to need to be able to articulate that, and show why there was a requirement for physical contact -- individual citizens don't have unlimited liability in this situation, so even if they can show there was a reason for involvement that included physically assaulting the deceased, they have to go a lot further due to the result of the actions.
Even LEO Unlimited Liability only covers one when one is doing ones duty to the best of their ability, in accordance to policy.
We have seen other cases where LEO have been charged and convicted of exceeding their mandate.
- also anyone who has followed the various deaths involving chokes etc should know that it's a RFB idea to use it unless in a life or death struggle.
I will also give the following caveats, I like an involved populace, and I heartily support those citizens who chose to intervene when a situation is going south. That said, interventions need to be conducted in accordance with the law, and if one isn't knowledgeable about the law, it's best to be a good witness and dial 911 if needed.
No. I’m just rolling my eyes at the introduction of George Soros and bill C-11 to what was otherwise a normal and interesting thread on someone getting choked to death on the NYC subway. If you want to be taken seriously, be serious.
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I appreciate the deep dive Kev. That makes sense to me and I can see things from another angle now. That's all it takes.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Quirky
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Don't buy it. The buck starts with the family network. It's not uncommon to hear the family express their disappointment with the lack of mental health resources whenever a member of theirs dies from overdose or a result of homelessness. It's easier to just forget and dump them into the social welfare system, but then act all surprised in the news when the result is death, be it from drugs or criminal actions.
There will never be enough MH funding and support, that part of society is too far gone. I'd rather see more resources go toward preventing drugs from flooding the streets of Canada and the US. Even if it means going to the source.
What don’t you buy? The medical examiner ruled that the manner of death was homicide (‘manner of death’ is distinct from a criminal finding of murder or manslaughter), and the cause of death a “compression of neck (chokehold)”. We can absolutely take at face value that he died as a result of the actions of another person on scene, although this is not yet at the point of criminal indictment or a finding of guilt. But he was killed by a person applying a chokehold. Yet you appear prepared to assign zero responsibility to the person who applied the chokehold, instead telling us “It's his [dad’s] fault his son died.”
Was his dad there applying the chokehold? How can you possibly place fault for a homicide primarily on the deceased’s living parent who wasn’t even on scene? Where are you coming from on this one? Do you accept the possibility that the person who killed him bears any responsibility for his death?
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If you can't pick a source to believe, there's lots more where these came from. I think it's relevent, because some of those DAs are in New York and might have involvement in the case. I just thought it might have had some relevance. But I'm not the expert here, am I. And seeing you discount that connection, I just have to be wrong and have no business to my layman's opinion. Sorry to intrude into your territory. Reply if you wish. I'm not continuing to take this off track or infringe on your professional advice. You can have your thread back.
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Honestly I just can't fathom your logic here.
There doesn't appear to be any drug usage or criminal activity that occurred in this instance by the deceased.
You can't link Drugs and MH together, sure there is some overlap, but it's nowhere close to being the same issue.
As far as going to the source, you going to burn down BC to get rid of the Pot, or get back into Afghanistan to rid poppy fields, or invade China, Mexico etc?
I'm really at a loss to any of your comments here, as they don't seem to be coming from any sort of logical thought.
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Regarding the city where this happened.
The FDNY EMS B-Heard program is working very well, according to the same people who run the the City of New York Behavioral Health Emergency Assistance Response Division.
FDNY-EMS B-HEARD members are chosen on a volunteer basis with at least three years experience by the Senior Qualified Process.
They receive a 6% salary increase, including OT and pension. That's nice.
They receive an "in waranty bulletproof vest", and an additional five weeks of EDP training.
This part is interesting, if they don't get enough volunteers, "FDNY EMS may need to mandate members to participate."
Sounds like a sh^t detail.
Same as my first station, 800m from 999.
The lesson I learned about EDPs was to transfer out of a high volume area, soon as I had enough seniority.
Other than the extra $ bonus NYC is paying their members to "volunteer", only good thing I remember about EDPs ( must be a new term. not what we called them. ) was they usually walked.
The FDNY EMS B-Heard program is working very well, according to the same people who run the the City of New York Behavioral Health Emergency Assistance Response Division.
FDNY-EMS B-HEARD members are chosen on a volunteer basis with at least three years experience by the Senior Qualified Process.
They receive a 6% salary increase, including OT and pension. That's nice.
They receive an "in waranty bulletproof vest", and an additional five weeks of EDP training.
This part is interesting, if they don't get enough volunteers, "FDNY EMS may need to mandate members to participate."
Sounds like a sh^t detail.
Same as my first station, 800m from 999.
The lesson I learned about EDPs was to transfer out of a high volume area, soon as I had enough seniority.
Other than the extra $ bonus NYC is paying their members to "volunteer", only good thing I remember about EDPs ( must be a new term. not what we called them. ) was they usually walked.
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