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A Hunting Thread- A Swerve from The Global Warming Thread

I've gone out twice for a deer hunt, and never shot anything - even though one walked right in front of me. It just wasn't really my cup of tea. However, I've had no trouble with fishing for barracuda and marlin in Jamaica. Maybe I have a subconscious hierarchy, and I see mammals as above fish? My only concern is that if I'm going to kill something, it has to be done as quickly as possible, and every hunter I've talked to shares that sentiment. As long as there is overall control on the numbers taken, in order to ensure that our great-great-grandchildren and beyond can enjoy the challenge, then I don't really have a problem.

My father was the same way. He shot one deer in his life and couldn't do it again. And that's fair, its not everyone.

I passed on a beautiful big 8 point this years because I didn't feel comfortable with the shot. My worst fear as a hunter is wounding an animal and or not being able to find it after that shot. I want them to die quickly, so they are dead before they hit the ground.

I took a good doe a few weeks later that dropped in place from a clean double lung. And 99% of the deer I have taken have been that way.

The only animals that rarely drop in place for me are bear. I've had them run for 30 - 60 meters.

This exactly. All of it. That's /thread right there.

Couldn't say it in better or fewer words.

But.

@Lumber What in the honey boo boo coffee crisp sunny sunday with a cherry on top is this take? Now, I knew you were left-wing but Jeeeeesus Christ on a bike. This is LEFT left.

Others have already exposed how wrong your perspective on hunting is by contrasting it with theirs, so I'll just add this: Mens rea does not apply to the actions of others, so nothing to do with opposing others' hunting activities. You feeling bad about hunting is not the hunter's problem. I know bringing up legal principles is always tempting when factual arguments are lacking but... they've actually got to be applied properly.

I don't think @Lumber was expressing his opinion on hunting, I think he was expressing why he thought anti hunters who eat meat feel the way they do.

But I stand to be corrected.
 
Define fun and define necessity.

I enjoy hunting, but I don't consider it or the kill 'fun.'
Nor do I hunt out of necessity anymore.

I legally hunt because it's my choice to do so.
And the outrage from detractors makes it even sweeter.

Really? This is how basic were getting you're going to get with our debate? "Define fun and necessity?" Fine, fun is something you get enjoyment out of doing, so "enjoying something" is synonymous with finding it "fun", and necessity is something that you need to do in order to satisfy basic needs.

But I don't get it. If you don't find hunting fun, and you don't need to do it, so why the hell do you do it?

If it's just the "hunt" that's fun, and not "the kill", and you don't need to kill, then why do you kill it? Why not bring an unloaded gun with you, get to the point where you're sure, from experience, that you have a kill shot, then pat yourself on the back and call it a day? And if you think that sounds like a ridiculous idea, then please explain to me why you don't find the kill fun, you admit to not needing to hunt at all, but would find it "necessary" to "complete" the hunt and kill the animal?
 
Really? This is how basic were getting you're going to get with our debate? "Define fun and necessity?" Fine, fun is something you get enjoyment out of doing, so "enjoying something" is synonymous with finding it "fun", and necessity is something that you need to do in order to satisfy basic needs.

But I don't get it. If you don't find hunting fun, and you don't need to do it, so why the hell do you do it?

If it's just the "hunt" that's fun, and not "the kill", and you don't need to kill, then why do you kill it? Why not bring an unloaded gun with you, get to the point where you're sure, from experience, that you have a kill shot, then pat yourself on the back and call it a day? And if you think that sounds like a ridiculous idea, then please explain to me why you don't find the kill fun, you admit to not needing to hunt at all, but would find it "necessary" to "complete" the hunt and kill the animal?

I don't think its the killing, per say, that's fun. It can also be a lot of work if you're alone. Last year I took my first buck while hunting alone, I've only ever hunted small game alone, and let me tell you it was a lot of work. But the sense of accomplishment and self reliance, feeding ones family and friends and the camaraderie at the camp are most defiantly fun and positive feelings.

I know I have paused before more than one shot, and thought do I want to put in the work that is involved after I pull this trigger ? Its getting dark, what if it runs ? Tracking deer without snow in the dark can be a task, and I'm starving and its freezing.
 
I don't think @Lumber was expressing his opinion on hunting, I think he was expressing why he thought anti hunters who eat meat feel the way they do.

But I stand to be corrected.
Thank you, and yes that's all I was commenting on: "how could a meat eater be anti-hunting", not my own opinion on hunting.


@Lumber What in the honey boo boo coffee crisp sunny sunday with a cherry on top is this take? Now, I knew you were left-wing but Jeeeeesus Christ on a bike. This is LEFT left.

Others have already exposed how wrong your perspective on hunting is by contrasting it with theirs, so I'll just add this: Mens rea does not apply to the actions of others, so nothing to do with opposing others' hunting activities. You feeling bad about hunting is not the hunter's problem. I know bringing up legal principles is always tempting when factual arguments are lacking but... they've actually got to be applied properly.

First, it'd be nice if you included a quote from what you're commenting on so I can be sure I know exactly what you're trying to critique.

Second, I don't think anything I've said so far (in this thread at least) could be construed as "Jesus Christ on a bike left-wing" (also, aren't most Christians right-leaning?). Again, if you quoted me, I could better tell.

No one has exposed my perspective on hunting because I haven't given my perspective on hunting. How do you know I don't have a Savage Axis chambered in .270 that I used to hunt deer with my father in law?

The only reason I brought up mens rea was to clearly articulate the idea (fact, really) that the same action can have two different meanings/consequences based on the state of mind of the "actor" at the time.
 
If the hunter makes a clean kill, that is likely the best death that animal will have in the wild. Its either that or dying of starvation, getting hit by a vehicle, by some horrible disease, by a piss poor shot and slowly bleeding out running away, or getting their ass eaten off by a bear or pack of wolves while they slowly die screaming in pain. At least a cougar or mountain lion will suffocate the prey before eating it.
 
Really? Well let me explain it to you.

There's a legal concept called mens rea, meaning having a guilty mind, which is one of the two elements required to be guilty of a crime. We have this because we recognize that as humans, the same actioned can be viewed and treated differently depending on the state of mind of the individual.

So, what's this have to do with meat eaters and hunting? Well, we recognize that humans are animals, and more specifically we are omnivores. So, we farm animals and slaughter them in the most humane way possible. We aren't doing it because we WANT to "kill" animals, but because we recognize that eating meat is a core aspect of our species, and we need to survive. Hunters on the other hand kill animals because they find it "fun" to hunt and kill animals. That's a completely different state of mind. Sure, you might "use" all of the animal you killed so it doesn't go to waste, but you could have much more easily just bought butchered meat; you decided to do it old school because you WANTED to.

So, yea. There's nothing complicated about the idea that some people might be fine with eating meat, but object to the idea of killing animals out of "fun" as opposed to necessity.
There is a bit of a contradiction there I think.

Yes as omnivores eating meat is a core aspect of our species. Stands to reason that over the tens of thousands of years we’ve been around as « modern humans » that « hunting » is bread into our species as well. After all as a species we’ve been hunter gathers far longer than agrarian or civilization based. Hide and seek is a lot of fun as a kid but I think it stems from some of our more basic instincts to want to hunt.

So if you want to argue core aspects of us as a species then you can’t just discount the instinct to want to hunt.
 
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Really? Well let me explain it to you.

There's a legal concept called mens rea, meaning having a guilty mind, which is one of the two elements required to be guilty of a crime. We have this because we recognize that as humans, the same actioned can be viewed and treated differently depending on the state of mind of the individual.

So, what's this have to do with meat eaters and hunting? Well, we recognize that humans are animals, and more specifically we are omnivores. So, we farm animals and slaughter them in the most humane way possible. We aren't doing it because we WANT to "kill" animals, but because we recognize that eating meat is a core aspect of our species, and we need to survive. Hunters on the other hand kill animals because they find it "fun" to hunt and kill animals. That's a completely different state of mind. Sure, you might "use" all of the animal you killed so it doesn't go to waste, but you could have much more easily just bought butchered meat; you decided to do it old school because you WANTED to.

So, yea. There's nothing complicated about the idea that some people might be fine with eating meat, but object to the idea of killing animals out of "fun" as opposed to necessity.
We grew up dirt poor. It wasn't fun to hunt, it was a matter of subsistence. We hunted deer, rabbits, ducks, pheasants, geese. If we didn't get them, we went hungry................
 
We grew up dirt poor. It wasn't fun to hunt, it was a matter of subsistence. We hunted deer, rabbits, ducks, pheasants, geese. If we didn't get them, we went hungry................
Yes, exactly: necessity. Thank you.
 
Thank you, and yes that's all I was commenting on: "how could a meat eater be anti-hunting", not my own opinion on hunting.
A personal choice not to hunt does not make one anti-hunting.

Even a vegetarian is not necessarily anti-meat.

Every single personal choice is not, also, a political stance.

So I don't know why you would assume I was talking about personal choices. I really don't care what others choose to do for themselves.
 
A personal choice not to hunt does not make one anti-hunting.

Even a vegetarian is not necessarily anti-meat.

Every single personal choice is not, also, a political stance.

So I don't know why you would assume I was talking about personal choices. I really don't care what others choose to do for themselves.
I'm so confused right now, I have no idea what you're arguing.

You claimed to not understand how a person could eat meat but be anti-hunting. I provided a plausible explanation for that.

You called me a hard core left-winger, but have not really outlined how anything I've said would be considered "left-wing".
 
Yes, exactly: necessity. Thank you.
Then the law should only allow sustenance hunting, but it doesn't.
It allows for the legal harvesting of game for those that enjoy the sport.
Hunters do more for the husbandry and habitat of wildlife than any PETA or like minded groups do.
If someone is pursuing a legal activity, and doing so properly, there is no reason for anyone to be concerned with what they are doing.

You need to drive an EV. No pickups.
You need to wear a mask.
You need to be vaccinated.
You need to stop hunting, fishing, hiking, camping.
You need to do your part for the environment, or we'll make you pay.
You need to stay home with your kids, never mind your job, and just do what you're told

What we really need is for people to mind their own business and worry about themselves. Not the lawful activities of someone they've never met, simply because they don't like the activity.

Besides, nobody is obligated to explain the whys and hows of their activity to anyone, including detractors. They just don't. You do not owe an explanation to anyone.
 
Then the law should only allow sustenance hunting, but it doesn't.
It allows for the legal harvesting of game for those that enjoy the sport.
Hunters do more for the husbandry and habitat of wildlife than any PETA or like minded groups do.
If someone is pursuing a legal activity, and doing so properly, there is no reason for anyone to be concerned with what they are doing.

You need to drive an EV. No pickups.
You need to wear a mask.
You need to be vaccinated.
You need to stop hunting, fishing, hiking, camping.
You need to do your part for the environment, or we'll make you pay.
You need to stay home with your kids, never mind your job, and just do what you're told

What we really need is for people to mind their own business and worry about themselves. Not the lawful activities of someone they've never met, simply because they don't like the activity.

Besides, nobody is obligated to explain the whys and hows of their activity to anyone, including detractors. They just don't. You do not owe an explanation to anyone.

So far @Lumber hasn't stated his personal opinion. He's just playing a form a devils advocate.

Until he does claim a position as his own there isn't much to say to him.

Im using male pronouns. Correct me if I am wrong @Lumber
 
I would really like to hear your position on all this.
Sure.

I love animals and abhor animal cruelty. Next to harming children, nothing would make my blood boil more than someone intentionally inflicting pain and suffering upon an animal for their own pleasure. But, is hunting and killing animals "inflicting pain and suffering"? No, it's not. I used to believe, up until just the last few years, that predators did like some of the big cats and killed their prey before eating it. I've since discovered that that is actually exceedingly rare, and that most animals die screaming while being eaten alive. Conversely, receiving a swift death by gunshot, or a bolt to the head before a throat cut, is far less painful and terrifying that being slowly eaten alive. So, oddly, despite the fact that as I've gotten older I've become even more pro-animal welfare, I've at the same time become even more pro-meat eating and hunting, because hunting and factory slaughter are both extremely "humane" when compared to death it the wild.

I wouldn't even judge someone who actually enjoys the actual "kill" portion of the hunt, but if you enjoy "killing" that much, I might not want my kid playing with your kids without me around. Just don't go out of your way to kill just for the sake of killing (i.e. make sure your kill goes to good use), and don't inflict unnecessary cruelty on the thing you're killing.

I apologize to any of you who did not realize this was my stance on hunting and have now had your mental model of me flipped on its head. #sarcasm
 
Sure.

I love animals and abhor animal cruelty. Next to harming children, nothing would make my blood boil more than someone intentionally inflicting pain and suffering upon an animal for their own pleasure. But, is hunting and killing animals "inflicting pain and suffering"? No, it's not. I used to believe, up until just the last few years, that predators did like some of the big cats and killed their prey before eating it. I've since discovered that that is actually exceedingly rare, and that most animals die screaming while being eaten alive. Conversely, receiving a swift death by gunshot, or a bolt to the head before a throat cut, is far less painful and terrifying that being slowly eaten alive. So, oddly, despite the fact that as I've gotten older I've become even more pro-animal welfare, I've at the same time become even more pro-meat eating and hunting, because hunting and factory slaughter are both extremely "humane" when compared to death it the wild.

I wouldn't even judge someone who actually enjoys the actual "kill" portion of the hunt, but if you enjoy "killing" that much, I might not want my kid playing with your kids without me around. Just don't go out of your way to kill just for the sake of killing (i.e. make sure your kill goes to good use), and don't inflict unnecessary cruelty on the thing you're killing.

I apologize to any of you who did not realize this was my stance on hunting and have now had your mental model of me flipped on its head. #sarcasm

Fair enough.

Have you ever hunted ? Have you ever enjoyed wild game as a meal ?
 
Fair enough.

Have you ever hunted ? Have you ever enjoyed wild game as a meal ?
No to the first. Yes to the second. I have friends/family from NB and NS who've given me plenty of moose meat and venison (mince meat pie with real venison is life changing) from their hunts, and my dog loves to gnaw on a whole deer legs.
 
So far @Lumber hasn't stated his personal opinion. He's just playing a form a devils advocate.

Until he does claim a position as his own there isn't much to say to him.

Im using male pronouns. Correct me if I am wrong @Lumber
I'm just quoting him as a segue, nothing personal.

My comments are based on the population as a whole, not an individual.
 
I'm so confused right now, I have no idea what you're arguing.

You claimed to not understand how a person could eat meat but be anti-hunting. I provided a plausible explanation for that.

You called me a hard core left-winger, but have not really outlined how anything I've said would be considered "left-wing".
I think we may have been speaking past each other. My apology if that was the case.

What I'm saying is I don't understand how a meat-eater could politically oppose hunting, such that they'd seek to prevent others from engaging in it, even if it is sustainable hunting, not poaching - which any good hunter opposes anyway.

Of course I know many meat eaters aren't hunters: I'm one of them. Myself for simply circumstantial reasons: I live downtown and don't have hunters in my close community. Others for more emotional reasons, as you've outlined.

But the latter aren't what I would call "anti -hunting". They just made the personal choice not to engage in it, which is not a political stance in itself.

As to how I would see such a stance as far-left; it underlies a strong desire to control others to promote leftist values. (Far right is similar, in my view, but for rightwing values.)

As to my impression of your perspective on hunting: you've described hunters as people who enjoy killing which is just wrong. Brad Sallows described it well in a nutshell twice already.
 
If you want to hunt go hunt.

If you don't then don't.

I actually love hunting gophers - who are pests in a pasture.

Anyone ever see what happens to the Alpha Lion once he's too old to take care of the pride? It would be a very shitty death.
 
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