LGBTQ Stuff (split from other political threads)

[Blackadder1916]

What is gender dysphoria or dysmorphia? What is its based on? At this point we do not really have an idea. Is it fundamentally an undiagnosed intersex condition? Is it a mental disorder? Whatever that means? A social contagion? All of the above?

If you think you are a wolf, I feel comfortable saying that is not something that should be routinely supported

What gender are you?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1705197250509423020

I provided a brief reply to someone else in another thread about the differences.

If you are going to discuss the subject, at least get the terms right.

Dysphoria vs. Dysmorphia: What’s the Difference
The differences between dysphoria vs. dysmorphia comes down to the following.

Gender dysphoria means someone feels the body they were born into doesn’t reflect their true self or who they are or identify with in terms of their gender.

Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

Body dysmorphia is a disorder that results in someone perceiving a major flaw or problem with their own body, even if that perception is not based in reality. They see themselves, or a certain aspect of themselves, as “distorted” or “ugly.”

Body dysmorphic disorder - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

And some further info relating to the difference in the terms, though I don't expect many to actually read it or to GAF about using correct terminology, the reasoning behind changes to definitions in the DSM editions or that medicine is not an "exact" science as long as they can blather on either not understanding or imprecisely using terminology/language to support their argument or refute others'.

Table 23, DSM-IV to DSM-5 Body Dysmorphic Disorder Comparison - DSM-5 Changes - NCBI Bookshelf

Table 2. [DSM-5 Criteria for Gender Dysphoria ()]. - Endotext - NCBI Bookshelf

Medical Interventions for Transgender Youth - Endotext - NCBI Bookshelf

Gender dysphoria

Distress experienced when gender identity and body are not congruent. Defined in the DSM-5, which replaced “gender identity disorder” in the DSM-IV

 

[suffolkowner]

I provided a brief reply to someone else in another thread about the differences.



And some further info relating to the difference in the terms, though I don't expect many to actually read it or to GAF about using correct terminology, the reasoning behind changes to definitions in the DSM editions or that medicine is not an "exact" science as long as they can blather on either not understanding or imprecisely using terminology/language to support their argument or refute others'.

Table 23, DSM-IV to DSM-5 Body Dysmorphic Disorder Comparison - DSM-5 Changes - NCBI Bookshelf

Table 2. [DSM-5 Criteria for Gender Dysphoria ()]. - Endotext - NCBI Bookshelf

Medical Interventions for Transgender Youth - Endotext - NCBI Bookshelf

Gender dysphoria

Distress experienced when gender identity and body are not congruent. Defined in the DSM-5, which replaced “gender identity disorder” in the DSM-IV

that doesnt really explain anything though does it? What is gender identity? Where does it come from? How come I dont have one? How does one know that their gender identity and body are not congruent? Focussing on the simpler FtoM and MtoF examples obscures the absurdity of the larger post modernist movement and ideology. In the end I expect there to be an underlying physiological mechanism that will explain most of the phenomena much like homosexuality. But the discourse is not centered on this unfortunately IMO

 

[Brad Sallows]

But what is well documented is that being told "you are abnormal", especially to a child, is very damaging to their mental heath, whereas telling them "you are normal" has the opposite effect.

So, if the jury is still out, as you claim, I'd rather sit on the side of doing things that will have a net benefit toward our childrens' mental health. Why the hell not?

A problem I see is misuse of language - "normal" in place of "natural". "Abnormal" simply means out-of-normal-range; it isn't inherently discreditable. I realize it's a high wall to climb now, but it would be helpful if everyone could acknowledge rarity. (Not quite reconciled to the era in which we live, in which ever-longer words and phrases are created to describe things, until the ever-longer words and phrases themselves acquire a taint and require even more circumlocution.)

"The hell not" is because we can't be certain there is a net benefit. Insisting something is not an illness precludes trying to treat it (especially if attempts to do so are rigorously policed and punished), which is not beneficial. If the treatment is not what is really needed and is irreversible and harmful, there is a net deficit, not benefit.

 

[Blackadder1916]

And some further info relating to the difference in the terms, though I don't expect many to actually read it or to GAF about using correct terminology, the reasoning behind changes to definitions in the DSM editions or that medicine is not an "exact" science as long as they can blather on either not understanding or imprecisely using terminology/language to support their argument or refute others'.

that doesnt really explain anything though does it? What is gender identity? Where does it come from? How come I dont have one? How does one know that their gender identity and body are not congruent? Focussing on the simpler FtoM and MtoF examples obscures the absurdity of the larger post modernist movement and ideology. In the end I expect there to be an underlying physiological mechanism that will explain most of the phenomena much like homosexuality. But the discourse is not centered on this unfortunately IMO

So, I'll count you in the "I don't expect many to actually read it" column.

 

[suffolkowner]

So, I'll count you in the "I don't expect many to actually read it" column.

what value was i to get from those links? They added little to my understanding of the various conditions that people are lumping together as "transgender"

 

[Jarnhamar]

What if we started bugging kids in kindergarten about what gender they are?

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

"Kids are so open and malleable".

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Kids are so open and malleable".

Regardless of the source of the comment and the means by which it was obtained, anyone who objects to the observation's accuracy is free to advance an argument.

The political left understands full well that control of institutions can be exploited to shape people's beliefs. Anyone who pitches a fit about religious indoctrination in schools necessarily concedes that indoctrination in schools is possible, by whoever controls them.

 

[TacticalTea]

Maybe I won't believe transgenderism is a mental illness when our schools aren't getting infiltrated by sexual deviants with massive fake racks and kids behaving like cats, all demanding that we normalize such heresy.

There is no conclusive evidence on whether or not medical transitions are actually beneficial, yet the Left is manipulating parents into butchering their kids, under threat of killing them ("they'll commit suicide if you don't trans them!").

It's all transparently abhorrent, I don't know how anyone can support this.

It's plainly obvious that MANY - especially vulnerable, such as autistic, gay, or otherwise mentally afflicted - kids are being brainwashed by Instagram and TikTok influencers, as well as activist (re-)educators (devouring mother archetypes) into adhering to this ideology. No kid wants to be the boring cis-het when they can choose instead from hundreds of new and exciting gender identities! They're being sold a nightmare dressed as a dream.

A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder

This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sexual orientation. In childhood, the boys were assessed at a mean age of 7.49 years (range, 3.33–12.99) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Based on this study, you can lower the suicide rate amongst dysphoric youth simply by providing support throughout their teenage years, ensuring they make it to adulthood, and from then it's pretty much smooth sailing for the rest of their lives, given a 92% dysphoria resorption rate after a natural puberty.

If instead you go ahead with medical transitions, yes the suicide rate might decrease somewhat (if you trust the studies that state so but ignore the ones that state the opposite) but you'll still have an adult with a suicide risk that's several orders of magnitude higher than the general population.

 

[Lumber]

A problem I see is misuse of language - "normal" in place of "natural". "Abnormal" simply means out-of-normal-range; it isn't inherently discreditable. I realize it's a high wall to climb now, but it would be helpful if everyone could acknowledge rarity. (Not quite reconciled to the era in which we live, in which ever-longer words and phrases are created to describe things, until the ever-longer words and phrases themselves acquire a taint and require even more circumlocution.)

"The hell not" is because we can't be certain there is a net benefit. Insisting something is not an illness precludes trying to treat it (especially if attempts to do so are rigorously policed and punished), which is not beneficial. If the treatment is not what is really needed and is irreversible and harmful, there is a net deficit, not benefit.

It doesn't matter at all what the textbook definitions are. We're dealing with children, so it matters only what they and the rest of society (and their peers especially) view the meaning as, and to them "abnormal" doesn't just mean "different". It has a much more negative connotation. Only 2% of the world's population has green eyes, yet we don't consider people with green eye to be "abnormal". If we did, they'd probably feel bad about an probably get bullied about it.

 

[Lumber]

For me I didn’t spend my childhood attracted to males or females, it wasn’t even something that crossed my mind. It also wasn’t something that was pushed on me one way or another. My family wasn’t big on public displays of affection, and they kept things very child friendly.

I believe people can be gay, simply that children cannot. Just as children cannot be straight. For children, most of what they do is learned behaviour. They don’t start branching out from that learned behaviour until they are teenagers.

First off, and I can't believe I'm actually saying this to someone is 2023, being gay ( or straight) is NOT a learned behaviour. You are born gay.

Further, and more to your point in the ford paragraph, it sounds like you had a very... abnormal child hood. Most children have parents who show affection, hug and kiss each other, etc. But it's more than that: whether or not they are formally taught about it, kids are constantly exposed to heteronormativy. The vast majority of their friends parents are hetero, the vast majority of couples on TV are hetero, their older siblings are starting to date and the majority of them are heteor. So, when a new kid comes to class and he's the first one ever to have two dads, but none of the students have ever been really explained what gay means or told that being gay is completely normal and acceptable, the kid gets bullied for being different.

 

[Lumber]

There's so much to unpack here...

Maybe I won't believe transgenderism is a mental illness when our schools aren't getting infiltrated by sexual deviants with massive fake racks and kids behaving like cats, all demanding that we normalize such heresy.

First off, one example does not a epidemic make, and you shouldn't base your non-professional opinion based on one example. Secondly, Kayla Lemieux is punking everyone.

There is no conclusive evidence on whether or not medical transitions are actually beneficial, yet the Left is manipulating parents into butchering their kids, under threat of killing them ("they'll commit suicide if you don't trans them!").

First, there IS medical evidence that it is beneficial:

"The truth is that data from more than a dozen studies of more than 30,000 transgender and gender-diverse young people consistently show that access to gender-affirming care is associated with better mental health outcomes—and that lack of access to such care is associated with higher rates of suicidality, depression and self-harming behavior. "

The Evidence for Trans Youth Gender-Affirming Medical Care

Second, NO ONE IS BUTCHERING THEIR CHILDREN. Stop spreading fucking fake anit-trans bullshit. Children cannot get sex re-assignment surgery.

It's plainly obvious that MANY - especially vulnerable, such as autistic, gay, or otherwise mentally afflicted....

This is where your colours really show, and I now realize debating with you is in vain. If you believe that gay people are "mentally afflicted", then your are terrible humane being, full stop.

 

[brihard]

Saying "dysphoria" is mental illness at one point and then later simply saying it isn't just doesn't wash.

Are you suggesting that definitions of psychiatric disorders cannot/should not be revised as further understanding is gained? Because that’s obviously not true. I suspect you’re accidentally speaking very broadly and generally here when maybe you were trying to make a narrower point. Homosexuality itself was deemed a ‘mental illness’ under the original DSM, and it took a few rewrites to completely expunge that notion- although there are absolutely still people today who will tell us that simply being gay is a mental illness.

Any position based on us having a sufficient understanding of the human brain in 2023 to allow our definitions of things to fix and crystallize is… flawed. It’s likely that further research into biochemistry, pre-natal development, and increased leveraging of modern brain imaging scans will move us towards further understanding of what, physiologically, transgenderism stems fromz

Whether something is a ‘mental illness’ or not depends in part on whether distress or dysfunction results. This is very much an area where, in the context of transgender individuals, a lot remains to be seen if the variables stemming from societal shittiness could be isolated and excluded.

 

[OldSolduer]

Everyone take a freaking chill pill and relax. This is extremely divisive and quite frankly I find both sides to be rather bothersome.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Every farmer will tell you that there is incontrovertible proof that homosexuality is a natural part of life: They have observed in every flock of geese, or herd of cattle, horses or sheep, etc. a certain percentage of animals that prefer to stick to their own sex for ... sex and companionship.

Of course, there is no way of knowing if animals also feel mis-gendered because they tend not to talk about it.

 

[mariomike]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

Like they say, everyone has one.

quite frankly I find both sides to be rather bothersome.

Quite frankly, I find it sort of funny reading dudes argue about it with other dudes.

Not my wheelhouse. The brain specialists can figure it out it.

And some further info relating to the difference in the terms, though I don't expect many to actually read it or to GAF about using correct terminology, the reasoning behind changes to definitions in the DSM editions or that medicine is not an "exact" science as long as they can blather on either not understanding or imprecisely using terminology/language to support their argument or refute others'.

Right.

 

[gryphonv]

My problem with the LGBTQ debate is we have so called 'experts' on both sides who really are not qualified to make statements about the medical realities.

I suffer from depression and addictions, but this don't make me an expert with psychology/psychiatry of depression and addictions.

The one thing I don't agree with, is the ability of teachers to keep secrets away from parents. Especially something that can have long term consequences.

I personally don't understand trans, and I may have a negative mindset towards it, but if my child felt they are trans and discussed it with their teacher. I would want to be a part of that conversation so I can support them. Keeping me out of the loop will not really give me a chance to help my child feel more accepted.

I think a very real danger can happen when you allow teachers to keep secrets with children they are in a position of authority to, it opens up the possibility of abuse, grooming, etc. All very real things that are happening today. Which to me is just as dangerous if not more than a child being confused about their sexuality/gender/etc. Both can lead to self harm and suicide. Which I'm sure nobody on either side of the issue wants.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Are you suggesting that definitions of psychiatric disorders cannot/should not be revised as further understanding is gained? Because that’s obviously not true. I suspect you’re accidentally speaking very broadly and generally here when maybe you were trying to make a narrower point. Homosexuality itself was deemed a ‘mental illness’ under the original DSM, and it took a few rewrites to completely expunge that notion- although there are absolutely still people today who will tell us that simply being gay is a mental illness.

Any position based on us having a sufficient understanding of the human brain in 2023 to allow our definitions of things to fix and crystallize is… flawed. It’s likely that further research into biochemistry, pre-natal development, and increased leveraging of modern brain imaging scans will move us towards further understanding of what, physiologically, transgenderism stems fromz

Whether something is a ‘mental illness’ or not depends in part on whether distress or dysfunction results. This is very much an area where, in the context of transgender individuals, a lot remains to be seen if the variables stemming from societal shittiness could be isolated and excluded.

I gather the point of the change was to drop the implications of "disorder". That's fine, but it is basically a cosmetic change. The people so diagnosed must still be "distressed", unless the "Distress experienced when gender identity and body are not congruent. Defined in the DSM-5, which replaced “gender identity disorder” in the DSM-IV" bit provided by @Blackadder1916 is inaccurate.

It's still not clear to me what the excuse is for deciding this one thing, among all the things a child might express, merits immediate nudges in a particular direction - because that is what I am observing in some cases - instead of the usual wait-and-see neutrality. (I understand the political activism excuse, but the misuse of children for political ends has no merit worth considering.)

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's plainly obvious that MANY - especially vulnerable, such as autistic, gay, or otherwise mentally afflicted - kids are being brainwashed by Instagram and TikTok influencers, as well as activist (re-)educators (devouring mother archetypes) into adhering to this ideology. No kid wants to be the boring cis-het when they can choose instead from hundreds of new and exciting gender identities! They're being sold a nightmare dressed as a dream.

There are some kids who are LGBTQ (born that way) and it just is what it is. It's who they are.

There are also a lot of environmental influences that condition or brainwash kids into thinking they're LGBTQ - from parents to teachers to social media. An overriding belief that they need to stand out and be different and identify as such. How far should supporting someone's creativity when defining their sense of self go?

Look at poor Cody here.

Cody's pronouns are e/em/eir/eirs/ OR xe/exm/exy/xyrs/ OR any neopronouns that aren't ze/zer (because that would be fucking weird).

Eir Cody is a white transmasculine fem non-binary temporarily mostly able-bodied neurodivergent obsessive-compulsive chronically ill culturally Jewish unitarian universalist non-monogamous demi low romantic grey demo bisexual survivor of acute and complex trauma millennial and cat parent in mental health recovery.

Imagine being Cody's teacher trying to help them with math when they have all that tumbling around inside their head. Imagine being an instructor at CFLRS and reading that in a student's autobiography. I like to consider myself open-minded but indulging in this level of gender ideology isn't preparing someone for a productive adulthood.

("they'll commit suicide if you don't trans them!").

This gets mentioned alot. I'm going to guess for a lot of people using this argument it's with the same level of concern as when people use it about banning firearms.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I keep hearing "brainwashing".......how many courses do the hetrosexual folks on here figure they'd need to take before they'd be homosexual??

 

[ArmyRick]

There are some kids who are LGBTQ (born that way) and it just is what it is. It's who they are.

There are also a lot of environmental influences that condition or brainwash kids into thinking they're LGBTQ - from parents to teachers to social media. An overriding belief that they need to stand out and be different and identify as such. How far should supporting someone's creativity when defining their sense of self go?

Look at poor Cody here.

Cody's pronouns are e/em/eir/eirs/ OR xe/exm/exy/xyrs/ OR any neopronouns that aren't ze/zer (because that would be fucking weird).

Eir Cody is a white transmasculine fem non-binary temporarily mostly able-bodied neurodivergent obsessive-compulsive chronically ill culturally Jewish unitarian universalist non-monogamous demi low romantic grey demo bisexual survivor of acute and complex trauma millennial and cat parent in mental health recovery.

Imagine being Cody's teacher trying to help them with math when they have all that tumbling around inside their head. Imagine being an instructor at CFLRS and reading that in a student's autobiography. I like to consider myself open-minded but indulging in this level of gender ideology isn't preparing someone for a productive adulthood.



This gets mentioned alot. I'm going to guess for a lot of people using this argument it's with the same level of concern as when people use it about banning firearms.

I am curious about people like "Cody". Is Cody being for real or just on a massive attention seeking scheme? If its the latter, than people like eir/whatever are hurting the people who genuinely need help with trans/or other mental health support.

Their has to be a limit of tolerance to the F-ing insanity. I actually believe their are attention whores out there trying to ride this wave of anyone is anything they want to be.

Meanwhile, what about serious people who are struggling with whats going on inside their own heads? They get glossed over or missed altogether because of the attention seekers.

My gut feeling? Its my opinion and I may be fully wrong. People who are experiencing severe mental anguish (wrong sex/wrong life/hate reality/etc) first need professional Medical help. Full stop, not arm chair activist and attention seekers looking to ride this wave.
Next, I genuinely feel starting physical transitioning before adulthood is a colossal mistake. I have seen too many videos by people who jumped the gun and transitioned before age 18 and regret it big time later.

Come on, when do we as a society say common sense? We need to put our foots down. This should be between the patience and their healthcare professionals.

Get the activist out the decision making.