AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Colin Parkinson]

I still say that for transports you simply subsidize a couple of extra Ro-Ro's for BC Ferries and Marine Atlantic that have the required upgraded comms, etc. and a strengthened section for installation of a helipad. Mandate "X" number of crew positions for Reservists and during the winter maintenance periods conduct your annual loading/unloading exercises.

Making a deep sea RO/RO compatible with the existing BC ferries infrastructure would be difficult. Also the engines are not optimized for the short runs. In fact our fast cats were the first fast cats built to facilitate RO/RO within 20 minutes, all the other designs could not do that. Short turnarounds are the name of the game in the short run ferry service business. To do that you give up some sea keeping abilty.

 

[Kirkhill]

Making a deep sea RO/RO compatible with the existing BC ferries infrastructure would be difficult. Also the engines are not optimized for the short runs. In fact our fast cats were the first fast cats built to facilitate RO/RO within 20 minutes, all the other designs could not do that. Short turnarounds are the name of the game in the short run ferry service business. To do that you give up some sea keeping abilty.

How do the Baltic, North Sea and Irish Sea ferries manage it?

Some of those are servicing the Orkneys, Shetlands, Faroes, Iceland and Greenland year round.

 

[Maxman1]

How do the Baltic, North Sea and Irish Sea ferries manage it?

Some of those are servicing the Orkneys, Shetlands, Faroes, Iceland and Greenland year round.

Presumably, they have different infrastructure than BC Ferries, and were able to figure out a design that works for them within their area of operations.

 

[Kirkhill]

Presumably, they have different infrastructure than BC Ferries, and were able to figure out a design that works for them within their area of operations.

Fair enough. But in addition to the short haul Vancouver-Victoria work BC Ferries also has Rupert and Haida Gwai to service.
On the other coast Marine Atlantic is sailing in the same seas as the Europeans. It could be servicing Iqaluit. It could also be supplying connections to Greenland and Iceland. Both Greenland and Iceland, as well as the Faeroes are serviced by ferries from Norway. Those aren't money makers. They are connectors and statements of claim.

BC Ferries could do much the same on the West Coast. Instead of just leaving the traffic to the Americans (Alaska Marine and Black Ball) they could reciprocate and double the sailings. Again these would not make money, they would be statements.

And as such, on both coasts they would be surplus capacity. Capacity which could be taken off line and retasked if the situation required.

DFDS, Scandilines, Stena, P&O and Maersk are all heavily subsidized by their governments to supply capacity that exceeds commercial requirements. Just the same way they subsidize airports and highways that can transport troops and tanks as well as commercial traffic.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

East Coast ferries are heavily subsided already, to the point that the feds were buying replacements. Out here it is a Provincial responsibility. All of BC ferries vessels are really inland water vessels. The East Coast vessels are open water. Traffic from the US to Alaska is under the Jones Act.

 

[GR66]

East is the most likely direction that we'd have to move heavy land forces anyway. The Pacific theatre is most likely to be a naval and air conflict as far as Canada is concerned so additional JSS-type assets would be good for the West and have Ro-Ro's in the East.

 

[Kirkhill]

East Coast ferries are heavily subsided already, to the point that the feds were buying replacements. Out here it is a Provincial responsibility. All of BC ferries vessels are really inland water vessels. The East Coast vessels are open water. Traffic from the US to Alaska is under the Jones Act.

Re the Jones act

Traffic from Seattle and Port Angeles to Wrangel, Ketchikan, Juneau, Kodiak, Anchorage and Dutch are under the Jones act.

Traffic from Seattle and Port Angeles to Victoria and from Victoria to Wrangel, Ketchikan, Juneau, Kodiak, Anchorage and Dutch are not. Those are useful lines of communication that perhaps the Federal Government to subsidize to advantage.

Just like it could with links from St Johns to Iqaluit, Disko and Reykjavik.

 

[Kirkhill]

Further?

On the left coast?

Build them in North Van. Power them with Ballard Fuel Cells. Fuel them with LNG from Kitimat sourced from Prince George.

And put a big red maple leaf on the vent where the stack used to be.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Re the Jones act

Traffic from Seattle and Port Angeles to Victoria and from Victoria to Wrangel, Ketchikan, Juneau, Kodiak, Anchorage and Dutch are not. Those are useful lines of communication that perhaps the Federal Government to subsidize to advantage.

Only if your traffic from SEA/PA is truly destined for Victoria or or originates in Victoria and is destined for Alaska, and in reality, very very little is - and not for transshipment. They keep a very close eye on that and punish the guilty. Even the cruise ships need a special derogation if they are to stop at a Canadian port in between Washington and Alaska and a re not allowed to take on any Canadian goods (for the ship - the tourists can buy whatever they want) on their way, only allowed buying American at either end.

 

[Blackadder1916]

East Coast ferries are heavily subsided already, to the point that the feds were buying replacements. Out here it is a Provincial responsibility. All of BC ferries vessels are really inland water vessels. The East Coast vessels are open water. Traffic from the US to Alaska is under the Jones Act.

An uninterrupted ferry link to Newfoundland is a constitutional obligation of Canada as per Term 32(1) of the Terms of Union of Newfoundland with Canada

32. (1) Canada will maintain in accordance with the traffic offering a freight and passenger steamship service between North Sydney and Port aux Basques, which, on completion of a motor highway between Corner Brook and Port aux Basques, will include suitable provision for the carriage of motor vehicles.

Likewise, the maintenance of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment

44. Canada will provide for the maintenance in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador of appropriate reserve units of the Canadian defence forces, which will include the Newfoundland Regiment.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If Newfoundland was a girl we call her a gold digger, that's one expensive date......

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And B.C. was promised a train link to the rest of Canada, which is why the Canadian still runs through the Rockies, deficit and all.

But I think we are getting pretty far from AOR's and JSS's.

 

[lenaitch]

If Newfoundland was a girl we call her a gold digger, that's one expensive date......

There was a similar provision in the PEI Terms of Union (superseded by the bridge). I imagine all of the provinces that joined post Confederation had various provisions for the transfer of debt and other matters that made it attractive to join at the time.

 

[Kirkhill]

And B.C. was promised a train link to the rest of Canada, which is why the Canadian still runs through the Rockies, deficit and all.

But I think we are getting pretty far from AOR's and JSS's.

But the purpose of the AOR's and JSS's, and the RO-ROs and Ferries, and the Trains, is to supply logistical support. The question in my mind is who is the client? And who does it serve?

That BC train also moves war materiel from Halifax to Montreal, Ottawa, Shilo, Dundurn and Vancouver. Is it military infrastructure or civil? Obviously it is dual purpose. Likewise for the highways that parallel the route. Likewise for the inland ferries along the route. And the Ferries from Newfoundland to Nova Scotia and Vancouver to Victoria. Likewise for the network of airports across the country.

Logistics are military necessities but they are also civil necessities. They can also be profitable. Not necessarily directly but the contribute to the ability of a society to generate wealth and be more profitable to the benefit of all.

Hitler's Autobahn's. MacDonald's Railway. Cyrus's Highways. Charles Stewart's Royal Mail - created by his father to connect Edinburgh to London so he would never have to see Scotland again but opened to the public, for a fee, by Charles. Military necessities but civil advantages.

So the PPP Public Private Partnership aspect of supplying logistic support to military operations is, I think, entirely germane.

And figuring out how to minimize costs or at least defray them by having the government purchase dual purpose assets that can be commercially exploited by its citizens seems reasonable to me. And those dual purpose assets might come out of the military budget - I believe our governments do far too much of that - but equally could be financed out of the civil budget with military use being a financial burden that would have to be covered by the taxpayer as a portion of the total cost of providing the asset.

But I believe that asking people to pay 10% over the odds to supply a militarily useful asset that can benefit them in their daily lives and in the conduct of their businesses is an easier sell than asking them to pay 100% for something that they will never see, let alone use.

 

[Kirkhill]

Under the program, the (US) government can use the ships for international commerce as well as calling on them to support military requirements if the need arises. In exchange for access to the vessels, the companies receive a $6 million per year per ship stipend.

First commercial ships join new program to support military tanker fleet - Breaking Defense

The program has a supporter in the commander of US Transportation Command, Gen. Jacqueline Van Ovost.

breakingdefense.com

How much would it cost to get similar access to civilian air fleets?

 

[KevinB]

First commercial ships join new program to support military tanker fleet - Breaking Defense

The program has a supporter in the commander of US Transportation Command, Gen. Jacqueline Van Ovost.

breakingdefense.com

How much would it cost to get similar access to civilian air fleets?

We do already.

 

[Kirkhill]

We do already.

Sounds like a program worth copying here.... if we don't already.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We do already.

Those are commercial tankers to move fuel up to refill the bases and to do ship to ship transfers in a protected harbour. They can't do RAS. It's an important link in the chain given the quantities of fuel involved.

 

[Furniture]

There was a similar provision in the PEI Terms of Union (superseded by the bridge). I imagine all of the provinces that joined post Confederation had various provisions for the transfer of debt and other matters that made it attractive to join at the time.

PEI joined to get rid of its railway debt, it hosted the 1864 Confederation conference but didn't join until 1873.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Progress at Seaspan, both kingposts installed the last major modules